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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#31

Post by pbhjpbhj »

aalleavitch wrote: post #5
fredley wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we do build fully-automated and autonomous means to grow/build/create everything we need, identity in this era is still overwhelmingly rooted in our jobs. I am a Developer, she is a farmer, he is a doctor. If all the jobs go to robots, what are we? Ask any jobless person for whom no job exists how they feel about life.

You can still be a developer, a farmer, or a doctor even if you find that you don't require those activities in order to eat.

Agreed. However, if you drive a tractor and write code to drive tractors, say, are you a coder or a farmer (or a software engineering or a soil scientist ...).

Perhaps you see yourself primarily as a mother, or an artist, or ...

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#32

Post by JulianMorrison »

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

Exactly. Right now, we aren't doing work. We are doing makework, because society won't give us the tickets to eat and have shelter without it.

My work is all the things I ought to be doing, but have to fit around the daily makework. Less of it gets done than I'd like.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#33

Post by aaron-lebo »

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

What makes you stuck? You sound like you've accepted your fate. If you want to change things, just do it.

If your reality is so bad that you want to die, then how is taking action to potentially change things worse? A big part of this discussion is people want meaningful work and a meaningful life, but they want other people to give it to them. Why is that expected?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#34

Post by ffwacom »

Comes down to urban planning, the west is depressing because you move from box to box in your mobile box. If the systems were less efficient we would rely on each other more and perhaps feel useful, a third world city is a great place to live, mentally.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#35

Post by aalleavitch »

swalsh wrote: post #26
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

I agree, but I think we absolutely need to be thinking right now about how society is going to be functioning three or four decades from now. The rate of technological advancement hasn't slowed down, and depending on how closely you're following developments in a lot of these countries we traditionally think of as poor or underdeveloped you might find yourself surprised at how quickly they're starting to catch up.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#36

Post by nkozyra »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

Part of the problem, I think, is that most people like work. When people sense their hours are spent on fruitless or simple tasks, or they're not valued for it ("low skill" jobs) it's frustrating. Accomplishing things, making progress, solving problems ... these are very satisfying aspects to "work.". But how many jobs offer that regularly?

I have a more aggressive timeline than most on the spread of automation (a catch-all for job replacement, obsolescence, changing labor market). I'm of the opinion there will be a significant shift on our lifetime with whatever social repercussions and accommodations follow. But I don't think people will ever stop "working."

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#37

Post by agumonkey »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

After long unemployment period and bad times, I need work, not the social thing, just the activity.

I guess to some, the fact to be doing something is better than the job being interesting, a career, well paying .. (as long as it's not to extreme of course)

btw, I believe that we're wired to like work as a basis for social bonding (if you believe that social bonding was selected to help for survival, and work is basically mutualized survival). So doing something in group is probably always good as long as the group factor is good enough (aka not being slaves)

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#38

Post by TomMarius »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31
aalleavitch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still be a developer, a farmer, or a doctor even if you find that you don't require those activities in order to eat.

Agreed. However, if you drive a tractor and write code to drive tractors, say, are you a coder or a farmer (or a software engineering or a soil scientist ...). Perhaps you see yourself primarily as a mother, or an artist, or ...

I see myself as a human. What I do for money or for hobby doesn't define me all by itself. I'm interested in music production as well as in B2B sales. I'm a software engineer as well as someone who spends weeks at a time in the nature without any electronics at all. You can't say that I'm a software engineer or a DJ or a salesman. I'm all of these.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#39

Post by bfsg »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

There is nothing wrong with working and liking your work. I have a passion for music and coding, working all day. Problem is that most people need to work for another reason; $$$ instead of passion, to avoid ending up in the streets. That's more like slavery.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#40

Post by aalleavitch »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #33
time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

What makes you stuck? You sound like you've accepted your fate. If you want to change things, just do it. If your reality is so bad that you want to die, then how is taking action to potentially change things worse? A big part of this discussion is people want meaningful work and a meaningful life, but they want other people to give it to them. Why is that expected?

Some people get caught in situations where furthering their career and eating next week are mutually exclusive propositions.
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