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Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

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Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#191

Post by pjc50 »

marrs wrote: post #186
ddalex wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slow erosion of our sovereignty What exactly are changes in the UK's sovereignity?

The UK govt spends a lot of its time rubber stamping EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist. I don't have time to give this reply the attention it deserves, but consider that it is now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop, and it was almost made illegal to tinker with your own motor vehicle. Then there's the never ending torrent of health and safety legislation. These…

> EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist

What does that actually mean?

> now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop

I googled for this, and the only reference I could find was Mail and Express articles, so I suspect it's not true. The EU fake British news debunking site has this to say:

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/in-a-jam-over-non-existe...

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#192

Post by te_chris »

te_chris wrote: post #178
kypro wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of replaced? If Europeans didn't kill any native Americans, but just replaced them demographically despite the them not consenting would that be moral in your opinion? Because that's what's happening. And are you suggesting the EU's free movement isn't a thing? What exactly makes it so difficult for someone from Eastern Europe to come to the UK?

As an immigrant to the UK from not-the-EU, I can tell you that Mrs. May's time at the home office has turned UK immigration policy into a clusterfuck that works against the interests of the country and forces smart people who the UK didn't have to pay to educate (from Australasia in my experience) to leave, despite them having good jobs and paying tax here.

@kypro It's not 'racially preferenced'. The UK is a member of a club of nations with certain rules, which it seems to be ignorant of - such as the ability to restrict free movement within the rules of FM.

The way the UK treats outside EU migrants is down to the hateful politics of the daily mail et al and has no basis in fact - look at Germany and the Blue Card for a contrasting example.

FWIW, I voted remain (as a Commonwealth citizen, ridiculously, I could vote, but UK citizens in the EU couldn't, despite the referendum affecting them greatly!)

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#193

Post by oblio »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #140
627467 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is more than an economic union. In fact, economic integration was/is only one of the strategies to foster lasting European stability, peace and path towards harmony among warring neighbours. To face these negotiations only on the basis of economic gains/lost is ignoring the political and less tangible goals of the union.

But lack of war in Europe is costing us so much in lost revenue for UK arms manufacturers!

Not to rain on your parade, but the last "European" war almost bankrupted the UK. And back then European countries didn't have nukes while the UK still had an empire.

I know you're being sarcastic :)

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#194

Post by pbhjpbhj »

maze-le wrote: post #143
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Versus an EU population of c.750 Million. We in the UK need the EU (eg for trade) more than they need us.

I don't think 750M is correct, its more like 510M. But I concur with your last statement.

You're right, Wikipedia says 510 Million. The former figure is Google's quick-info for Europe. Thanks for the correction.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#195

Post by tpm »

marrs wrote: post #186
ddalex wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slow erosion of our sovereignty What exactly are changes in the UK's sovereignity?

The UK govt spends a lot of its time rubber stamping EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist. I don't have time to give this reply the attention it deserves, but consider that it is now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop, and it was almost made illegal to tinker with your own motor vehicle. Then there's the never ending torrent of health and safety legislation. These…

It's not illegal to 'sell your home made jam in your local charity shop' in many EU countries, so if it is in UK it has either nothing to do with the EU or is a rule misinterpreted by local legislation (which happens quite often).

"EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist"

sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But UK also wants to leave the jurisdiction of ECHR which is a very corporatist move.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#196

Post by pbhjpbhj »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #163
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Corbyn for Brexit? He campaigned against it all around the country before the referendum. Can anyone provide anything close to a first hand source?

Yes. Corbyn has been a long-term left-wing Eurosceptic, who opposed membership of the EC in 1975 and acted consistently with that view until the recent referendum. While his public statements during the referendum supported remaining in the EU, I would argue that the general consensus among most of the "remain" campaigners was that his support was lukewarm at best (e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-eu-ref…

Theresa May for example spoke for Remain prior to becoming PM, I wasn't really expecting an "I love Brexit" quote ;o)

I'm aware Corbyn was against the EC 30 years ago, but that didn't really seems pertinent. He did campaign around the UK for Remain (which was not really reported at the time, I presume those controlling the media felt that best for them not to report) - which presumably was not required of him.

Personally I don't think it matters how personally convinced he is - the party as a whole is the Opposition. But the OP must have something better to state categorically that "Corbyn is for Brexit".

FWIW I Don't understand how Corbyn saying he's for the EU in your linked quote bolsters the contrary assertion.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#197

Post by crdoconnor »

moomin wrote: post #179
crdoconnor wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Authoritarian voters support Brexit, liberal ones don't. I don't think that's an accurate analysis. As far as I can tell the vote was driven mainly by economic distress, media (which papers you read) and community (a lot of people just voted the same way their friends or family did). >The London Tech scene (which skews left/liberal) seems to be hemorrhaging talented people to Berlin and other places. I know a lot of…

Funny you mention economic distress, because people always seem to ascribe the Trump victory to it to. Except that it's not borne out by any actual analysis of who voted and who didn't. Yes, some very depressed areas voted for Brexit. But Liverpool didn't, and it's seriously poor.

> Funny you mention economic distress, because people always seem to ascribe the Trump victory to it to. Except that it's not borne out by any actual analysis of who voted and who didn't

The non-existent statistical analysis of who voted and who didn't that ascribes the vote to economic distress:

http://voxeu.org/article/brexit-cry-financial-pain-not-influ...

In case you're curious.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#198

Post by rusk »

oblio wrote: post #185
rusk wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to highlight an an interesting parallel you've drawn here, between the "sovereignty" Ireland obtained leaving the UK, and the "sovereignty" the UK, or rather parts of England and Wales hope to obtain by leaving the EU. Though we define ourselves as "different" from the English, we are very much "the same" in a great many respects, and there is nobody more like us in this world than the English. In that re…

The EU is not "putting down" the UK economically. And the UK can't really become a major tax haven (too many citizens, it would draw way too many resources from every big country... and too much attention). I don't think the analogy holds.

Did you mean to respond to GP?

This is effectively what I wrote, albeit with more detail and supporting arguments.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#199

Post by AstralStorm »

hacker_9 wrote: post #86
nkkollaw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad. If anything because they'll have to rewrite thousands of laws and procedures that came from the EU times, and deal with the caos that that will cause. That only will cost so much money (and pain) that it would justify staying in the EU. Then, of course there are companies that have left and that will leave, highly-skilled workflow for London that will be harder to get, etc. They have to negotiate with the EU so…

Most of what you wrote is mis-information, for example it is written in the Repeal Bill [1] that all existing EU legislation will be copied across into domestic UK law to ensure a smooth transition on the day after Brexit. Trade wise, there will be bumps, but it is mutually beneficial to both us and the EU to keep trading as much as possible the same as it is now. The only benefactors from making trading more difficu…

It won't be kept up to date for sure. Plus the law will definitely change all arbitration clauses from ECJ to British version.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#200

Post by AstralStorm »

nkkollaw wrote: post #49
virgilp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa there. I'm not so sure about Poland, but I'm pretty sure that Orban looks after himself first, second and third... only then comes "citizens" and "EU", and the order there is not clear. In general, I'm deeply suspicious of politicians that claim "citizens first, EU second" - that seems counterproductive, unnecessary, and more likely to be empty populism than truth.

I'm only speaking from experience and can't really talk about Hungary. As for Poland, I can tell you that the difference with Italy is like night and day. As Italians, we are often asked to make sacrifices for Europe (and we did, look up "tesoretto"), like if we were in danger of being kicked out of the EU. It's a complicated matter, but in general Italy is more corrupt and hardly takes any meaningful step to improve…

Instead we have locally corrupt politicians and expensive social programmes we cannot afford in any term.

More recently a grab at Department of Justice by executive branch.

As to unemployment in another branch, the underemployment stats are huge and salaries in median quite low.

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