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Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

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Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#101
post #24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious: what are the cards UK is holding?

The UK has a population of 65M. Thus there is a big market for all kinds of exports. As far as cards go this is a big one, but its the only one I can identify.

Russia has 144M, and EU is not exactly folding their cards and giving up in regard to trade deals or sanctions.

Population size don't seem to be that important.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#102
post #9

I can't decide if Brexit is good or bad for the UK. On the one hand, there's the common market and freedom of movement. On the other there's Germany's dominance and lots of fragile banks. What would be worse, losing access to the free market or being around if the banks fail? Or would being outside the market make a difference if Deutsche Bank failed?

Bad. If anything because they'll have to rewrite thousands of laws and procedures that came from the EU times, and deal with the caos that that will cause. That only will cost so much money (and pain) that it would justify staying in the EU. Then, of course there are companies that have left and that will leave, highly-skilled workflow for London that will be harder to get, etc. They have to negotiate with the EU so…

    If anything because they'll have to rewrite thousands of
    laws and procedures that came from the EU times, and deal
    with the caos that that will cause.
I've never understood this argument. Surely all you have to do is write a law that says: in the absence of British law, default to EU legislation. That's the essence of the great repeal bill, is it not?

    They have to negotiate with the EU so that they're not
    completely cut out of commerce, with nothing to offer in 
    exchange and therefore no negotiating power.
Uhm, there is the little matter of the ~£60 billion shortfall that the EU has to find from somewhere.

    It's old people in the country that have decided this,
    based on their ignorance on the matter...
What makes you so sure that old people are more ignorant than young people? I think you'll find that it usually works the other way round.

    I'm Italian, just talking based on what I've read and a
    handful of friends who live in London
Take what you hear from London with a massive pinch of salt. The EU has done very well for Londoners, thank you very much, and they aren't very happy about the fact that the rest of the population of the UK have just made their comfortable futures a lot less certain.

Consequently, the rhetoric aimed at the other side comes with more than a little hyperbole.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#103
post #76
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and by 2050 will be the largest in Europe, whereas Germany's is predicted to fall by about 10%

Which propaganda outfit did you get that from, Zerohedge?

ah yes, the old "fake news" argument

the data is from the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs

https://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Publications/Files/Key_Findings_...

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#104
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious: what are the cards UK is holding?

Trade with one of the world's larger economies. There is clear mutual interest in continuing trade on an open basis. I'm not saying the EU is not in a stronger position, nor am I trying to make any claims that Brexit is good or bad, nor that it is being pursued competently by the current government (far from it). But the assessment of the process as being entirely one sided seems to me to be simplistic.

The EU is more than an economic union. In fact, economic integration was/is only one of the strategies to foster lasting European stability, peace and path towards harmony among warring neighbours.

To face these negotiations only on the basis of economic gains/lost is ignoring the political and less tangible goals of the union.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#105
post #15
post #2

This seems speculative and it effectively posits a worst-of-all-worlds situation resulting - one if which the UK is half inside the single market. Half inside such that it allows the flow of goods (the UK is a net importer) but not services (which we net export). This would be untenable, worse than a no-deal situation. And the basis of this speculation is that the EU is holding all the cards. I'm really not convinced…

As a Brit working in Europe, one year and a half after the announcement I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen. It makes sense to at least know what the worst possible scenario is. We have a Prime Minister who was against Brexit pushing for a hard Brexit. An opposition leader who is for Brexit. An uninformed public who were blatantly lied to (350 million a week to the NHS). The whole thing is an absolute s…

Is Corbyn for Brexit? He campaigned against it all around the country before the referendum.

Can anyone provide anything close to a first hand source?

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#106
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad. If anything because they'll have to rewrite thousands of laws and procedures that came from the EU times, and deal with the caos that that will cause. That only will cost so much money (and pain) that it would justify staying in the EU. Then, of course there are companies that have left and that will leave, highly-skilled workflow for London that will be harder to get, etc. They have to negotiate with the EU so…

While I appreciate Brexit hasn't happened yet there's little to no evidence yet of any exodus of highly skilled workforces. London remains an incredibly attractive destination for inflows of both investment, workers and tourists. Will some companies leave, no doubt, however the high profile mass departure of European HQs and banks has yet to bear out. To the OP, and going back to the article, a major issue is that of…

> there's little to no evidence yet of any exodus of highly skilled workforces

Like I mentioned, I'm speaking from what I read and a few friends living there. My friends all left because of uncertainty (all of them are programmers).

> Mario Monti it isn't willing to impose a free market in service in the same way it has for goods - and stand up to blatant protectionism

It's not protectionism, it's corruption and/or mafia. The government is ruled by companies (much like that of the US), and the mafia. Only when you realize this the initiatives they take (or don't take) start to make sense.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#107
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but Germany will have less control over the UK. From what I can tell and have read Germany has huge influence on pretty much every country besides Poland and--perhaps--Hungary (I live in Poland, not sure about Hungary actually). Poland definitely thinks about its own citizens _first_, and _then_ at what's good for the EU, which is after all what politicians have been elected to do. I'm Italian and Italy is a me…

On this subject of not having a choice in accepting rules: https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/no-deal-wont-happen-e185f9... "This is a tale of three dates. On 13th August 1969 the Irish Taoiseach went on television and called on the United Nations to send a peacekeeping into the United Kingdom to protect Irish people in Derry and Belfast. On 30th January 1972 the Parachute Regiment massacred 13 people on Bloody Sunday…

I just want to highlight an an interesting parallel you've drawn here, between the "sovereignty" Ireland obtained leaving the UK, and the "sovereignty" the UK, or rather parts of England and Wales hope to obtain by leaving the EU.

Though we define ourselves as "different" from the English, we are very much "the same" in a great many respects, and there is nobody more like us in this world than the English. In that respect England is kind of like an older brother that periodically gives us a kick but whom we tell jokes about behind their back. But we love them all the same and they us.

However, you also allude to some human rights abuses by the crown in the North, and in some respects this was a continuation of policy that had heretofore gone on in the rest of Ireland.

Do you think this is far fetched? The potato famine for a start. This was very much a political matter, and not merely a matter of a few spuds. Then there was 1916 where by far in excess the majority of fatalities were civilian and inflicted by the British army trying to regain control. Not to mention the subsequent illegal executions.

This was the backdrop against which Ireland sought independence, which seems a bit different from the narrative beneath brexit which appears to read as "something something sovereignty something something take back control".

With all that said, the UK would do well to look at how Ireland fared economically after independence. Not too well for a number of years but our eventual accession into the European Union helped to relieve that.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#108

Now Nigel (fucking) Farage is calling for a 2nd referendum. You can't make this shit up. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/11/nigel-farag...

I look forwards to the anti-Brexit bus having "If we abandoned Brexit, we'd have an extra 350 million pounds a week for the NHS" written on the side.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#109
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Or are you just reading the headline? He is saying a second referendum could show the politicians who have been pushing for a soft brexit recently that this is really what the British public want. What point are you trying to make?

> He is saying a second referendum could show the politicians who have been pushing for a soft brexit recently that this is really what the British public want. What does the word "this" refer to in the sentence above? A yes/no referendum on Brexit will not show the politicians whether the public want a soft or a hard Brexit.

The problem is you can't have a multiple choice referendum because it would split the leave vote. For example:

A. "Hard" Brexit

B. "Soft" Brexit

C. No Brexit

Brexitors would be somewhat split between A and B, and all remainers would pick C.

However, based on polling data it would suggest most people in favour of Brexit do want a "hard" Brexit, or a brexit that would give the UK control over its own trade and immigration policy.

Re: Does Brexit end not with a bang but a whimper?

#110
post #95

this euro currency is set to die. The only question is WHEN. Unfortunately, economists are not the ones to decide, but the only politicians are. And people vote ignorant politicians and talk about macro-economy like they do on football matches. In the long run, Brexit will be a GOOD thing for the British but for the wrong reason (xenophobia).

This is an article about Brexit. What's your point about the Euro?

(For those who don't know, the UK has never adopted the Euro)

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