Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#481

Post by dan_mctree » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #335

dan_mctree wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. If they send in troops, and should those troops fire on civilians, the Spanish may well lose international support. They were heavily condemned just for their police actions around the referendum. There also aren't that many countries that have serious internal strife in the western world anyway, that point is…

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. That's absolutely wrong. And thinking that Spain will need to fire on civilians is ridiculous. Either wishful thinking or you are ridiculously misinformed.

We've seen police/military fire into people in many places during protests recently. The Ukranian Maidan protests, in Egypt, Turkey and of course Syria. Why would Spain be immune to events like these while the people are easily as riled up as they were in Ukraine? Spain happens to have a history of civil war too.

All it takes is for armed police/military to meet large angry crowds that won't back down. If Spain sends the military to arrest the Catalonian government, we may end up with both of the ingredients. Perhaps a new Syria is unlikely, but is something on the scale of Euromaidan really that hard to imagine?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by handelaar » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #130

simias wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets. Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.

Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.

Oh FFS. We know what we saw on TV outside your little PP-controlled broadcast TV bubble. I was watching footage of your police beating the shit out of people all day long.

This particular argument -- "fake news, it didn't happen" -- is outside of Spain the most ridiculous Trumpish nonsense imaginable. "Lies"? I saw it with my own eyes in real time. Looking us right in the eye and insisting that black is white is offensive.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

eumenides1 wrote: post #144

chrisbrowning wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal. In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.

As a Canadian kid, i never understood why they would let Quebec go through with a referendum. Seems insane to just "divorce" a country (for lack of better words). As i grew up, i thought it was pretty progressive to allow it. As an adult, it seems like the only logical tactical option. A lot of people will claim that it isn't legal. They will be right. But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind.…

> Without violence, how is Spain going to stop Catalan from succeeding?

Empire of Law.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by _Tev » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

maksimum wrote: post #419

_Tev wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be independent you go and vote. If you do not care you stay home. Such low turnout seems like a win for "no" camp, because people of Catalonia apparently do not care about independence from Spain.

Except in this case it was If you want to be independent you go vote. If you do not care, or are afraid of getting hammered by Spanish police you stay home. In that case 43% turnout is pretty impressive.

Read the GP. What oppression was there in 2014?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by panglott » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

saimiam wrote: post #263

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US "the government" typically applies to either all three branches (courts, legislature, executive) or occasionally to the latter two only. The latter definition is typically only used in the case of a lawsuit involving the state. This is in contrast to parliamentary systems where the government is formed of the dominant political party or coalition in parliament, and also gets to act as the executive branch.…

> more common This doesn’t sound right. I’d like to see some proof of this. I’m from India and I only use government to refer to the legislature which happens to commingle with the executive branch. I’d love to join the mainstream if my usage is in the minority. Also, Spain is a parliamentary monarchy so in a thread centered on Spanish politics, I feel you should use the word government as used by Spaniards.

"more common" may just mean "more common in US English". There are good reasons for the term to have a different meaning in the US and other English-speaking countries with parliamentary systems.

As an American, though it is absolutely true that I think of "the government" as including the courts, because the government of the US is established by the Constitution, which establishes all three branches. There's not even good reason to talk about a "governing party" most of the time, except for rare times such as now when the Republicans control all three branches of government.

US news media using the word "government" are of course going to use the word "government" in the American English sense. Reporters or copyeditors may not even realize there is a distinction to be made.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by slaymaker1907 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

mvitorino wrote: post #393

jannes wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think for them it's only about having their own constitution and sovereignty. Another one of their goals might be to stop using the Spanish language, which a big part of the population has done already. They are perfectly fine with open borders, being a part of the European Union, using the Euro as currency, and even with keeping their Spanish passports (i.e. double nationality).

I'm sure they would, but once they are independent, they can't legally use the Euro. Would they even continue to be Spanish citizens and be able to travel freely in the Schengen area? A new state takes years to join the EU (assuming the EU would accept). How about sovereign debt? All these (really important) issues that should be part of an extensive debate so that people could understand better what is expecting the…

Of course they can continue to use the euro. They wouldn't have any control over it, but a country can use whatever currency their population will accept. IIRC there are a few small nations that don't really have their own currency and just use USD instead.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by Chris2048 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #230

ensignavenger wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they just declared independence, why would they expect tax money from the government they just separated from?

The cynic in me says “because humans are like that”. For example, one elected UKIP official expected the EU to pay for a road in the UK after brexit. Wouldn’t be surprised if either Spain or Catalonia now acts confused when someone puts an armed customs inspector on the border roads between them.

Was this David Rowlands, one of seven Ukip MPs in the Welsh National Assembly? Who, specifically, did he ask to pay for the road?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by philipov » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #433

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

> On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "make history". In this case, though, these politicians do so at great personal risk. Many are already imprisoned. Even if Cataluña gains sovereignty, chances are that they will be held for high treason by the Spanish authorities. The Spanish authorities are taking…

is High Treason punishable by death in modern Spain?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by JdeBP » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #259

platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

Well, that sounds like a book. But despite the failure, I'd point to Brexit as an example where there was a conflict that was still broadly speaking handled in a civilized manner. If I recall correctly, the EU never said that if the UK left, they would take steps to liquidate Parliament. It was (and is!) an acrimonious debate, but still a civilized one (contrary to apparently popular belief, "nice" and "civilized" ar…

There is one important difference: The "Brexit" has a legal foundation in the Treaty of Lisbon that sets out a mechanism, the infamous article 50 (written by a Brit, it transpires). Similarly, the independence referendum in Scotland had a legal foundation, an Order in Council. The division of Czechoslovakia was done by making constitutional law. Catalonian independence has no such legal foundation to rely upon, albeit that constitutional reforms aimed at providing one have been attempted. The U.S. constitution lacks a secession mechanism, too, some of the consequences of which are well known.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

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Post by _Tev » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #352

_Tev wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be independent you go and vote. If you do not care you stay home. Such low turnout seems like a win for "no" camp, because people of Catalonia apparently do not care about independence from Spain.

I’m not convinced, it requires some impressive mental gymnastics to turn a 5% “No” (and 10% Yes/No) into a majority

Again - read the GP. 2014: 20% No, 40something turnout. Independence has good support, but it is huge decision. Considering the gravity of the issue that's weak.