151–160 of 785 posts
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Everyone keeps talking about the constitution as if it is set in stone. The constitution was made by people, 50 years ago. It can and should be changed to reflect new realities.
Then change the constitution instead of blithely ignoring it and conducting an illegal election.
From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.
While secession will be troublesome, there are not many attempts at preventing secession that have not turned ugly violent in recent years because of attempts to prevent it.
I lived through a non-violent federation split and certainly hope for this outcome elsewhere. In the case of my country majority of the people didn't want the split either. Despite that it was possible to happen without violence.
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What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.
The usual claim for independence has historical roots.
On the Catalan side, there was not enough votes to morally claim for independence. By provoking a polarizing crisis, they hope to greatly improve their future chances for an absolute majority that helps legitimate their position.
In short, both parties ruling on both sides believe that they benefit greatly from confrontation so trying to reach agreements is pretty much out of the question, marketing is all that matters.
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True, Catalans factual issues are understandable, but this was an improper way to change things. It's nicer than fixed elections with fake votes, but it's almost as biased.
How else should they have done it?
- no threats to non pro-spain - more time before actual vote so people had time to actually come
a rushed vote is bad
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>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass. And here we are today.
Firstly Spain is in no better a condition now than it would have been had it allowed a vote and campaigned and lost. Secondly, a more accurate UK comparison would probably be with the Scottish referendum, which was won by those who wanted to remain part of the UK and so Scotland did remain part of the UK.
The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government. That should stop tax money flowing... I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http... Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.
Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.
For one thing it would destroy half the countries in the world, and most of them aren't highly developed nations that can vaguely cope with it.
For another, how do you set limits, why is Catalonia special but any random town or city isn't?
There's also the point that (probably) irreparably destroying countries based on slim margins and changing whims probably isn't smart.
Now that's not to say I wouldn't support a (legal) referendum in Catalonia, but you do need to treat it with some nuance.
I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?
It was not as much as it seemed: "That woman who had all her fingers broken. She hadn’t. That six-year-old boy, paralysed by police brutality? It didn’t happen. Serious injuries on the day: just two." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo...
Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
Your opinion on what Catalonia will actually need to do to gain independence. Is civil war (however unlikely) the only way?