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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#111

Post by barrkel »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #69
ryanlol wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic will is the will of voters, by not voting you choose to let others decide for you. You can’t reward people for not voting, that’s just utterly insane.

My mistake, I thought demos was the people not the "voters". /s Not voting in an illegal ballot seems reasonable. The rule of law is a cornerstone of democracy as too are free and fair elections.

And self-determination is the cornerstone of international rights, up there in Article I of the Charter of the UN.

For me, 70 out of 135 elected representatives is a more democratic mandate than the referendum. Not a fan of referendums.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#112

Post by celticninja »

whorleater wrote: post #84
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

>It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. Did they? The EU doesn't support Catalan independence, the US doesn't support the movement, the Catalan independence has 0 backing from any outside source, while most countries see this as an internal affair within Spain. Madrid ev…

You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. The best course of action for the Catalan parliament would have been to call an election and then if they won it with a decent majority used that as their mandate to declare independence. As it is they dont have a solid mandate so it is easier for Spain and the EU to ignore them, however all those Catalans who didnt support independence may well change their minds if the spanish army comes rolling into Barcelona.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#113

Post by bzbarsky »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #57
chrisbrowning wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Russia support Catalan independence?

If I had to guess: (1) Because they feel that it would add legitimacy to the "referendum" they held in Crimea, if only by comparison and (2) just generally to cause trouble in the EU.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#114

Post by chrisbrowning »

ryanlol wrote: post #49
chrisbrowning wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal. In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.

Not true. It states that this kind of a referendum is invalid .

I won't split hairs with you on that, but -- right or wrong -- Spain's Constitutional Court ordered the referendum stopped, and the Spanish government moved to enforce that order.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#115

Post by spankalee »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#116

Post by narag »

Ygg2 wrote: post #92
psadri wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone keeps talking about the constitution as if it is set in stone. The constitution was made by people, 50 years ago. It can and should be changed to reflect new realities.

The new reality is that Spain is probably going bankrupt.

Nonsense. Most of the big companies have left Catalonia last month. Half of Catalonia population doesn't want independence. Rule of law will be restored in a few weeks and all the thugs that have promoted this idiocy will be jailed.

Edit: to the person responding, you only see what you want to see. Police acted according to judiciary orders and there were no deaths and just a handful of injured people. Try to resist police in any other civilized country and see what you get.

Edit2: did you see the idiot father charging against the police with a child in his shoulders? did you see the police reaction? or the man that knocked inconscious a policeman throwing a chair at him? or the one kicking a fallen policeman in the head without provocation? did you know that most of the charges footage are old from mossos, not spanish police, from Chile or other countries? Or the girl saying she was tortured and forgot in what arm were the fingers supposedly broken? Real injured numbers are literally a handful, even The Guardian had to admit they've been duped. Of course nothing near the 800 mentioned in propaganda.

Oh and keep downvoting, you can't downvote facts and they0re surfacing now.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#117

Post by nemo44x »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #41
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.

> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide.

Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#118

Post by mpermar »

People that are raising the red flag of a civil war aren't that far away from reality, but that would not be a civil war in Spain, but a civil war in Catalonia.

Catalonian independent politicians representing only a minority of the people voting have gone way far on their responsibilities and have caused huge damage to the Catalonian economy with hundreds of mid-large sized companies leaving their jurisdiction to other regions. It is only needed now that one of these huge companies closes (e.g. Seat) their factories to cause huge riots within the region.

Man, so messed up, so many interests. These idiots are playing with the lives of many people and they do not give a dime about it...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#119

Post by _jal »

simion314 wrote: post #46
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Poker doesn't define rules for deciding when to play hearts.

This referendum may have been 'illegal' according to the rules of one game, but that's the point - some folks want to play another.

(Not taking a side on the matter; not my country, I'm woefully under-informed.)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#120

Post by cbraz »

spankalee wrote: post #115
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

The usual claim for independence has historical roots.
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