Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 785 posts

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#51

Post by pjc50 »

icebraining wrote: post #34
gonvaled wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful. People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms. The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be…

The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any more Catalan elections or the independence parties were banned from standing in them.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#52

Post by 1_2__4 »

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

You offer not a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Why would anyone believe it?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#53

Post by alvatar »

alvatar wrote: post #11
beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

You can keep downvoting me for thinking differently from what is seen is media. No, I admit it, there was shameful violence that day. But there is also daily violence against those who think differently and don't support the nationalist and xenophobic ideas behind the independentist movements. Of course, that's not admitted openly.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#54

Post by Legogris »

empath75 wrote: post #16
adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has call…

Or they could have a proper referendum which might be in their favor.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#56

Post by harperlee »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won

They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote.

The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you can level with a couple of months of "No" campaign.

My take on this is that we end up having to open a process to change the Constitution with an ensemble of unprepared politicians (on all sides of the table) that blocks the country for a couple of years (for reference, we have recently spent 18 months with a government in functions because we could not manage to vote the new president).

EDIT: It seems that some people didn't like "indoctrination". Ignore the word, my comment remains the same: education has been strongly focused on building a Catalan identity. It is not something that you level in a short term campaign. In Rajoy's shoes, this is something against his position.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#57

Post by pbhjpbhj »

chrisbrowning wrote: post #27
Boothroid wrote: post #4

I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Russia support Catalan independence?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#58

Post by MLR »

ryanlol wrote: post #37
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

Democratic will is the will of voters, by not voting you choose to let others decide for you. You can’t reward people for not voting, that’s just utterly insane.

In the minds of the Spanish people of Catalonia the referendum was completely illegitimate, why would they vote in it?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#59

Post by jwr »

What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal").

I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#60

Post by ryanlol »

simion314 wrote: post #46
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

>you can't ignore the constitution because you want

Uh? Why not? This has been done countless of times in history.

Post reply on HN