Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#11

Post by alvatar » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

beojan wrote: post #10

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#12

Post by matthewmacleod » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

ellius wrote: post #6

Boothroid wrote: post #4

I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?

So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

It was done “outside of legal channels” in the sense that it’s not possible to do it “within legal channels”.

I have no particular view on the outcome of this, but the fact that upwards of half a million protestors turned out in Barcelona suggests that it’s an important issue.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#13

Post by farresito » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

This is incorrect. I saw a few people with Spanish flags and everyone cheered them for voting.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#14

Post by ryanlol » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

alvatar wrote: post #11

beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

Show examples.

https://spanishpolice.github.io/

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#15

Post by pdabbadabba » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

True enough. Although this is a problem of Madrid's own making. By suppressing the referendum, they virtually guaranteed these results. It seems to me the political situation there is worse than if there has been a peaceful referendum, under protest by Madrid, and Catalans had narrowly voted for independence. They could probably have defused that with some sort of marginal concession to increase the region's autonomy (as they have in the past). But the problem they have now may not be solved so easily.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#16

Post by empath75 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has called their bluff.

Spain is going to be left with the choice between letting Catalonia go or attempting to use force to keep them in the state. I don't think Spain is prepared to fight a civil war over this, personally, nor should it. Let them go, keep them in the EU, keep the borders open.

With the EU there, it seems like breakups like this don't need to go any worse than splitting up North and South Carolina, for example.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#17

Post by sametmax » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

The real catch is more "In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because they didn't want to legitimize a referendum they considered illegal".

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#18

Post by matthewmacleod » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

alvatar wrote: post #11

beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

I’m not there, so I can’t say for sure, but those I know in Catalonia have been pretty clear that this isn’t the case.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#19

Post by alvatar » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

ellius wrote: post #6

Boothroid wrote: post #4

I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?

So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

This is a highly emotional issue. Little of what is said regarding History or economics is remotely solid. In an age with particularly low bar for checking facts, I think this independentist movement has basically been sheppered by a few ones interested in manipulating the uninformed population.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#20

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful.

People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms.

The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be organized due to the ferocious opposition of the Central Government.

I would prefer the Referendum to be repeated, in better conditions and properly organized, with all parties exposing their arguments, and all citizens interested enough to vote having their voices heard.

Sadly, this might now never happen.