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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#331

Post by gonvaled »

jannes wrote: post #64

The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government. That should stop tax money flowing... I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http... Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.

Tax money will still flow, but it will b administered by other people.

Actually, that is one of the central demands by catalans: money should not "flow" to Catalonia via Spain.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#332

Post by mixmastamyk »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #257
spankalee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by things like brain-drain and leanier taxation? What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to kee…

Rich regions typically subsidize poor areas, not the other way around. Also, industry in Spain is largely private.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#333

Post by cabaalis »

zeveb wrote: post #304
fusiongyro wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

It would seem that amendment has long been ignored. If a state votes to leave the union, it would likely be decided by a federal court as illegal, then go to Supreme Court for them to decide. The problem is that this will take too long, and things will escalate much sooner than they can review the case. For instance: If the people of the state in question refused to pay their taxes to the government they no longer recognize, the feds would attempt to arrest and prosecute. This could very quickly lead to armed conflict, first between those being arrested and the officers of the government, then would expand to include those who support secession. The government would then move to "preserve the union" with the only hammer they own (force) and there we will be. Source: history.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#334

Post by antaviana »

lllllll wrote: post #236
antaviana wrote: post #154

It's been a bit of bad luck what happened. On the Spanish side, the party at the Government did not have enough votes to freely apply their own policies. By helping provoke a polarizing crisis, they hugely improve their chances for an absolute majority to improve their power position should there be an election in Spain. Had they negotiated with Catalan Government, their future chances for a huge win would be a lot l…

> On the Catalan side, there was not enough votes to morally claim for independence Fair enough. How much % census would you consider enough? Catalan pro-independence had higher % than say for instance Brexit vote. And a good chunk of the % was lost to Spanish Police "raids", quite violently boycotting the peaceful vote.

In my opinion if the Catalan 2015 election had had more votes pro-independence (in particular for the "Junts pel Sí" party votes, but I can accept CUP votes as well although at the time I was not that sure), it would have been morally claimable.

Or, if they had chosen to go for elections next December where votes unequivocally pro-independence parties where higher than votes for the rest of parties, in my opinion it would have been morally claimable.

In other words, I'm a lot more comfortable with some clear means to count unequivocal Yes votes against unequivocal No votes. If a party has "Independence" in the election program is an unequivocal Yes. If a party does not have "Independence" in the election program is an unequivocal No.

I voted in the referendum but I'm not comfortable with the huge "No show" of No votes on the 1-O referendum. To me, the results of the referendum are not conclusive for such a decision.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#335

Post by narag »

dan_mctree wrote: post #308
bad_user wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'll look at our history, there is no separation that happened peacefully. Historically speaking, an independence declaration is equivalent to a declaration of war. And Catalonia will receive no international support because all countries have regions with minorities that wished for independence at some point — well, except maybe from Russia, or other countries that want instability in the region.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. If they send in troops, and should those troops fire on civilians, the Spanish may well lose international support. They were heavily condemned just for their police actions around the referendum. There also aren't that many countries that have serious internal strife in the western world anyway, that point is…

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response.

That's absolutely wrong. And thinking that Spain will need to fire on civilians is ridiculous. Either wishful thinking or you are ridiculously misinformed.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#336

Post by simias »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #282
simias wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the point is that given that the spanish government considered the referendum illegal, people not in favor of independence would probably not have wanted to caution it by participating. Clearly in these conditions the results can't be trusted. It's more like "90% of the people who thought the referendum was legitimate are in favor of independence". There's obviously a big selection bias. As for the question o…

> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote? That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?

Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members.

So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region to secede under certain conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Furthermore the UK always remained a sovereign state, with its own currency, army etc... It's hardly comparable to Catalunya. The scottish referendum would be a better comparison.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_Eu...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#337

Post by kuschku »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #279
crooked-v wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory voting, with real but minor punishments for not filing a ballot (but no requirement to actually vote for a candidate, to allow for cases where none of the above appeal). Of course, this will never happen with the current political structure of the US, as the Republican Party works to aggressively reduce total voter turnout everywhere it can.

How would you implement mandatory voting without doing what Republicans want to do to verify right-to-vote in the first place? Requirements to vote have been associated with racism in the past, sure, and the ideas are often stupid and pointless, but talking to foreigners, myself included, the opposition to having to show ID to vote seems stupid too.

Voter ID, but getting a Voter ID is free, and every district has to have the same opening hours and the same number of voter ID registration places per 1000 citizen.

The issue is that certain actors in the US want to make voter ID mandatory, only registration places in the rich districts, and ensure the poor can never get one via cost/availability, etc.

In other countries, where this disenfranchisement never happened, say, Germany, mandatory ID for every human are laws few object to.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#338

Post by dmix »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

> but not a democratic mandate since the votes were not supported by any international body

> The world cannot understand their will, as they have been executed outside the democratic framework.

So they need permission from other countries to make decisions about their own country? I don't get what you're saying here other than they "messed with the status quo and should get in line". Which is a questionable basis to make such an argument.

Of course other countries are not going to risk destroying their relationship with Spain to back some independence movement. There will never be initial international "support" unless they were clearly being repressed and there were human rights violations.

But not all democratic movements depend on repression to be right, nor should they require that to determine the direction of their own political futures.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#339

Post by jannes »

mvitorino wrote: post #122

What does this even mean: "declared independence"? Have they ordered borders to be closed? Bank accounts to be frozen until new currency is introduced? Have people started throwing their Spanish passports and their euros into the trash? It just sounds like a lot like pure political manoeuvre without any kind of practical consequence.

I think for them it's only about having their own constitution and sovereignty. Another one of their goals might be to stop using the Spanish language, which a big part of the population has done already.

They are perfectly fine with open borders, being a part of the European Union, using the Euro as currency, and even with keeping their Spanish passports (i.e. double nationality).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#340

Post by dnautics »

andrewaylett wrote: post #246
PeachPlum wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan was laid out clearly. The question asked of the electorate was also clear. February 2016 The process for withdrawing from the European Union Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.…

Notice that for all the Catalan low turnout has been hyped, they've actually got a higher proportion of the electorate than voted for Brexit: 43.03% * 91.96% = 39.57%

And they had uniformed thugs trying to prevent the vote outside many of the polling sites. A 40% turnout is remarkable.
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