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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#271

Post by degradas »

joaomval wrote: post #216
eponeponepon wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty. India, Kenya, Australia, Canada and various ex-SSRs all spring to mind. Not many without violence on the run-up, I'll grant you, but in many cases, the actual process of independence was performed entirely legally.

ex-SSRs can be a good example but ex colonies isn't a fair comparison with Catalonia

I'm from ex-Soviet country called Lithuania, and no, although Lithuania was the first country to declare independence from the Soviet Union, it was not done within Soviet legal framework in any way.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#272

Post by fusiongyro »

smcl wrote: post #162
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Nice catch 22 - between (2) and (8). You are allowed to secede if you vote for it ... but you're not allowed to vote to secede.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#273

Post by TallGuyShort »

flamedoge wrote: post #232
TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?

Haven't looked at the problem much, but I suspect it's a feeling of futility. If the problem in Spain is half the possible votes are illegal, I'd probably feel like whatever's going to happen through diplomatic channels is going to happen because that doesn't feel like a real election. In the US, most people live in either a red state or blue state and it'd take a heck of an upset to change that - and no one feels like a heck of an upset is coming. There are swing states where a tiny difference makes a huge difference nationally - and I suspect turnout is better in those states. But I haven't looked at it much - I could be wrong, and that would blow my theories to hell.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#274

Post by narag »

adrinavarro wrote: post #249
narag wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

Why "half" is often said: - 2015 elections were considered "plebiscitary", i.e. in absence of a referendum, pro-independence parties ran together as one "yes to independence" vote. They obtained 39.6% of the vote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_201... - Added together to radical left (anti-capitalist, pro-independence) parties, it adds up to 47.8% of the vote. With ~75% turnout. ~35% of cens…

Well, the "half" is a way of simplifying. Next elections will show an updated numbers. The reason I say half is that it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough to bully the other half into a revolution that could cause a blood bath and creating millions of extrangers in their own country.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#275

Post by lllllll »

marcosscriven wrote: post #179
frobozz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a better mandate than UK leaving the EU: 92% pro, from a 43% turnout = 39.56% of the electorate in favour of Catalan independence. Compare to 52% of 72% = 37.44% of the electorate in favour of Brexit.

I see I have been down voted. As someone born in Barcelona, with dual Spanish/British nationality, all I can say with certainty is that I’m deeply saddened to lose not one, but possibly now two connections to my European neighbours.

Looking at the silver lining, you gain a new citizenship, being Barcelona born. :)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#276

Post by diego_moita »

Canadian perspective here. We also had our troubles with separatism.

Back from the 60's till the late 90's Quebec had very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture. They came very close to separating from Canada in 2 referenda.

A few things decreased these tensions: compromise, increased economic dependence, immigration and cultural change within Quebec. Canada conceded a lot of rights to Quebec and increased the use of French within the English speaking part of the country. The immigrants that arrived in Quebec didn't have the memory of past grievances. The Quebecois culture changed becoming more cosmopolitan and less Catholic (we call it "The Quiet Revolution").

After these changes, separatism is today a political liability in Quebec. Their separatist party only succeeds when they disguise their separatism.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#277

Post by kgwgk »

simlevesque wrote: post #247
narag wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

They should have voted then.

The catalan parliament has approved the "independence" resolution (despite the parliament lawyers warning about the illegality of the voting) with 70 "yes" (out of 135 seats).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#278

Post by megous »

trzmiel4 wrote: post #73

The problem is not so much about Catalonia and Spain. There are plenty of such regions and ethnic groups in pretty much every country on the continent. If the ball starts rolling, it can mean going back a few centuries.

Suppressing people wanting self-determination has costs too. Thousands of people are killed every month because some group wants to keep it's rule over some territory or group of other people. Millions are reduced to poverty and stripped of their former living space every year.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#279

Post by TallGuyShort »

crooked-v wrote: post #258
flamedoge wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?

Mandatory voting, with real but minor punishments for not filing a ballot (but no requirement to actually vote for a candidate, to allow for cases where none of the above appeal). Of course, this will never happen with the current political structure of the US, as the Republican Party works to aggressively reduce total voter turnout everywhere it can.

How would you implement mandatory voting without doing what Republicans want to do to verify right-to-vote in the first place? Requirements to vote have been associated with racism in the past, sure, and the ideas are often stupid and pointless, but talking to foreigners, myself included, the opposition to having to show ID to vote seems stupid too.
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