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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#431

Post by rhino369 »

rayiner wrote: post #224
justanton wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what’s your take on Crimea and Russia in this case.

If an identifiable geographic region wants to secede, and there is sufficient support among the public, it should be able to do so. Crimea I think falls into that group: 93% voting in favor of joining Russia with 83% turnout.

I think there needs to be more than just a geographic region. A people have a right to self-determination. I'm not sure if any group of persons should. You need to look at history, ethnicity, language, culture, etc.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#432

Post by phaemon »

alvatar wrote: post #420
phaemon wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems reasonable enough. If you're going to live in Catelonia, then it seems right that you should learn Catalan. How exactly is learning a language "indoctrination"? Are children indoctrinated when they're taught through Spanish?

It's not limited to that. I agree that you should be able to learn in Catalan (but have the option of Spanish too). Visit the Catalan wikipedia, and you'll see how History is changed there with respect other Wikipedias. Read their books to see the bias in the way History is told. Indoctrination is a message with a "them and us" message that polarizes society, and has successfully done so. We all know words can be use…

Once again, vague accusations with no concrete examples. I'm not convinced. Sounds like you just have a bias against Catalonia.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#433

Post by microcolonel »

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

> On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "make history".

In this case, though, these politicians do so at great personal risk. Many are already imprisoned. Even if Cataluña gains sovereignty, chances are that they will be held for high treason by the Spanish authorities.

The Spanish authorities are taking basically no personal risk. If they screw the country, they can just leave on a plane, move to Switzerland or some other nice place.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#434

Post by Boothroid »

narag wrote: post #396
pjc50 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very difficult to predict what will happen and there has been considerable restraint so far, but Spain also had an armed separatist group for years (ETA), and crowd management can go very wrong very quickly. The 2011 London riots were extremely severe and lasted three days, despite not really having any political basis or leadership, and there were plenty of rightwing politicians calling for military interventio…

I have no crystal ball, but most of this people are just entitled rich kids. There are a few gangs in the movement that are used to organized violence, but most of the people shouting in the streets will not stand real mambo for five minutes. I do fear Russia involvement. Putin sent a messenger from South Osetia.

This 'Russians did it' meme is becoming prevalent. Is there evidence or just rumour?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#435

Post by vanattab »

narag wrote: post #160
tertius wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion on what Catalonia will actually need to do to gain independence. Is civil war (however unlikely) the only way?

Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

I don't understand how people can keep repeating this? With out citing specific data? Based on wikipeida's article on election data in the 2008 the average voter turnout was 73.9% of the population. During the Catalan referendum some were between 38.5% and 42.5% percent turnout. For simplicity lets say 100 people voted in the referendum which resulted in a 90/10 split in favor of independence. The turnout numbers suggest that in an a normal election maybe as much as 192 people might have voted or 92 more then did. Even if you assume %90 of the "likely" voters that did not vote would have voted against independence it seems to me that the independence side would have still won.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#436

Post by scientistem »

flexie wrote: post #345
epmatsw wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t Catalonia have a 13% unemployment rate? And a ~40% unemployment rate among young people? Seems like that fits those criteria pretty well...

There is a huge difference between the well educated but for now unemployed Catalan, 28 year old, only child (or with one or two siblings), always well fed, always warm, maybe living with his parents, maybe sharing a flat somewhere, all his life feeling safe, spending his days playing Xbox, surfing the Internet, chasing girls, hanging out on cafes or bars or going to Camp Nou to watch games, going skiing in January,…

It actually sounds like you’re describing the leadup to wwi. These conditions lead to war, not against it.

I’d love to hear a contrary opinion for the downvote I got: gross economic disparity and a large populace that has forgotten war sounds a lot like the early twentieth century.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#437

Post by microcolonel »

ben_w wrote: post #429
nemo44x wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the alternative is genocide then I'll take my chances. Asymmetric warfare is a real option and with enough turned generals and armed forces you'd have access to the same high powered weapons and the people could form a militia as well.

Genocide isn’t the alternative but rather the escalation in the hypothetical where the 2nd Amendment is relevant. The US does have nukes, after all.

I don't imagine there would be popular support for the U.S. government nuking Americans in Seattle over a sovereignty dispute.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#438

Post by dragonwriter »

cabaalis wrote: post #333
zeveb wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

It would seem that amendment has long been ignored. If a state votes to leave the union, it would likely be decided by a federal court as illegal, then go to Supreme Court for them to decide. The problem is that this will take too long, and things will escalate much sooner than they can review the case. For instance: If the people of the state in question refused to pay their taxes to the government they no longer re…

> If a state votes to leave the union, it would likely be decided by a federal court as illegal, then go to Supreme Court for them to decide.

More likely, the declaration would be ignored by the federal government (oh, statements would be made, but no formal action over the declaration.)

OTOH, any action to implement the declaration would be treated as if the declaration had never occurred; if, say, a state decided it's declaration of independence allowed it to seize federal property, interfere with federal agents, etc., well, we've seen that movie before.

If less extreme acts of disobedience with federal laws result from declaration, then those acts will get into court, where (almost certainly) the declaration will again be treated as void and without effect except perhaps as demonstrating adverse intent. Then the state will be forced to escalate or fold.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#439

Post by ben_w »

gonvaled wrote: post #423
ben_w wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I pass on my values, you tell fairytales, they indoctrinate their young.

Excellent! Do you have more irregular verbs?

How about:

* I am religious, you are holier-than-thou, they are extremist fundamentalists

* I am sexually experienced, you are kinky, they are being charged under section 70 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003

* I write self-documenting code, you need more comments, their code is unreadable

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