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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#141

Post by narag »

barrkel wrote: post #93
yeukhon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the Spanish government let the Catalans declare independence regardless of the outcome of the illegal referendum?

Because the alternative is forcible oppression and denial of the right of self-determination. Read more about the right of self-determination here: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957

That right is only for colonies or genocide, not the case of Catalonia at all. They're one of the richest spanish regions.

Edit: they've neve been independent, that's more of the bs that we're hearing these days.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#142

Post by StreamBright »

spankalee wrote: post #115
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#143

Post by djsumdog »

jwr wrote: post #59

What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal"). I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values…

This gets into a deeper philosophical conversation of what is _legal_. Legality is a social construct. After the America civil war, the the succession of the South was declared illegal.

http://khanism.org/security/legality/

It was also once legal to own slaves and legal for merchants to deny sales and service to blacks. Homosexuality was once illegal. If there is enough moral outrage and enough of the population backing a movement, the legality can change since it is a pure social construct based the belief of the people.

For example, people in Texas who want a succession movement. It will never happen because although there are some very loud people for it, less than 2% of the entire population actually supports such an idea. If it one day changes to 60% ~ 70% .. or even up to 80%, what's legal at the Federal level simply won't matter. At that point we'll see the David Graeber argument play out; namely that States work because of their monopoly on violence.

We see this today when it comes to American states with recreational cannibals, illegal at the Federal level, yet socially and morally accepted within the states that have legalized it (Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Colorado, etc.)

Personally, I hope I see Cascadia succeeded in my lifetime. I think that would be awesome.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#144

Post by eumenides1 »

chrisbrowning wrote: post #36
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

That probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal. In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.

As a Canadian kid, i never understood why they would let Quebec go through with a referendum. Seems insane to just "divorce" a country (for lack of better words). As i grew up, i thought it was pretty progressive to allow it. As an adult, it seems like the only logical tactical option.

A lot of people will claim that it isn't legal. They will be right. But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind. Without violence, how is Spain going to stop Catalan from succeeding? What if Catalan gets violent? How will Spain respond?

There are very few good moves left here for Spain.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#145

Post by [deleted] »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#146

Post by tomp »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31
beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

No, he's just saying that parent's excuse that "no" voters didn't show up because of fear of violence is invalid, because the only perpetrators of violence were Spanish police (i.e. the pro-"no" force), so if anything "yes" voters were discouraged.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#147

Post by ben_w »

gonvaled wrote: post #105
_jal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> indoctrination of former children that now can vote. That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them. You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.

Only the other side indoctrinates, didn´t you know that!?

It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I pass on my values, you tell fairytales, they indoctrinate their young.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#149

Post by titanix2 »

alvatar wrote: post #38
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.

Who is paying the judges wages? For important matter like that, it is difficult to trust that the State and the government have totally no implication.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#150

Post by hectorlorenzo »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

> Other regions of Spain, such as Pamplona or Euskadi, have more arguments for independence, but they chose coexistence within the democratic framework.

Except that Euskadi had a pro-independence armed group that killed 829 people from 1975 to 2011. Other than that, doesn't Euskadi have its own tax system, distinct from the Spanish one? I think it's not fair to compare both situations.

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