Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#341

Post by nemo44x » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #192

nemo44x wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.

I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…

If the alternative is genocide then I'll take my chances. Asymmetric warfare is a real option and with enough turned generals and armed forces you'd have access to the same high powered weapons and the people could form a militia as well.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#342

Post by andrewla » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

Findeton wrote: post #178

It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence. But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: i…

So I found [1] which appears to contain the actual text used in the resolution.

> CONSTITUÏM la República catalana, com a Estat independent i sobirà, de dret, democràtic i social.

Which Google translates as

> WE CONSTITUTE THE Catalan Republic, as an independent and sovereign State, of social and democratic law.

It certainly sounds like a declaration of independence. Since the very act of making the declaration is de jure illegal, it's not clear to me that there's a formality that must be observed for this to be made more "official".

[1] http://www.elpuntavui.cat/politica/article/17-politica/12696...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#343

Post by autokad » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #300

platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

yeah, its crazy how people just dont get that anymore.

'the majority (50.1%) of people feel the way I do, everyone else should have to do as I do because that's how democracies work. we live in a society after all'.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#344

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

nextos wrote: post #324

ctdonath wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

Catalonia is as semi-autonomous as Texas right now.

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#345

Post by flexie » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

epmatsw wrote: post #286

flexie wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…

Doesn’t Catalonia have a 13% unemployment rate? And a ~40% unemployment rate among young people? Seems like that fits those criteria pretty well...

There is a huge difference between the well educated but for now unemployed Catalan, 28 year old, only child (or with one or two siblings), always well fed, always warm, maybe living with his parents, maybe sharing a flat somewhere, all his life feeling safe, spending his days playing Xbox, surfing the Internet, chasing girls, hanging out on cafes or bars or going to Camp Nou to watch games, going skiing in January, to the beach in the Summer

and then your young, angry Arab man, third son in a family of 5, little education, no girls, no fun, no safety, no future.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#346

Post by kuschku » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

michelsonmorley wrote: post #205

guiomie wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

Well it is not so easy. First, they will need to modify the constitution, which requires being approved a qualified majority not a simple one in parliament, in this case, is 3/5 of the parliament this reform might need to be approved by referendum (all the country not just Catalunya) in case a tenth of the parliament requires it. Second, the government has no desire to modify the current regional system, which is in…

Except, Germany previously did allow regions to leave.

There was a huge political situation after WWI about that, but in the end 5 countries agreed to allow the counties in the north of Germany to choose if they want to belong to Denmark or Germany.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#347

Post by gooseus » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

I don't have a lot to contribute to this relatively serious topic and development in world politics.

What I can contribute, though, is that if you want a fun perspective on the history surrounding the creation of Spain, then I recommend picking up Europa Universalis IV next time it's on Steam sale and starting a campaign as either Castile or Aragon. You can create Spain after you conquer Granada and if you enter into a royal marriage with your other half.

Game isn't 100% historically accurate, but it's got enough that you may spend as much time reading wikipedia on various regions, events, people as you do playing the actual game.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#348

Post by icebraining » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #300

platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

The US did have a civil war during those couple of centuries, though.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#349

Post by _Tev » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #226

joaomval wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many countries got independent legally?

This is an excellent point I've struggled to put across. Furthermore people act like laws are set in stone and are always objectively Good. "It is illegal" is in some cases not a good argument against something.

Laws are usually there for a reason.

You could apply your whole argument to public opinion and referendums - public will change mind a lot, why make such drastic moves based on it?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#350

Post by johnnyfaehell » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #242

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…

Civil war is unlikely but it's certainly on the table. If it does end up like that, it'll probably be a "terrorist" war of attrition. Which the EU will want to have none of.