261–270 of 785 posts
From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
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"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…
If you'll look at our history, there is no separation that happened peacefully. Historically speaking, an independence declaration is equivalent to a declaration of war. And Catalonia will receive no international support because all countries have regions with minorities that wished for independence at some point — well, except maybe from Russia, or other countries that want instability in the region.
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I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.
In the US "the government" typically applies to either all three branches (courts, legislature, executive) or occasionally to the latter two only. The latter definition is typically only used in the case of a lawsuit involving the state. This is in contrast to parliamentary systems where the government is formed of the dominant political party or coalition in parliament, and also gets to act as the executive branch.…
This doesn’t sound right. I’d like to see some proof of this. I’m from India and I only use government to refer to the legislature which happens to commingle with the executive branch. I’d love to join the mainstream if my usage is in the minority.
Also, Spain is a parliamentary monarchy so in a thread centered on Spanish politics, I feel you should use the word government as used by Spaniards.
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The referendum was not just illegal, it was clearly rigged. The local parliament lack the power the vote for independence, that's just a farce.
So Spain gets to keep Catalonia as a colony because it is the one with power to make the rules?
What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal"). I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values…
Because one of the core tenants of the EU is rule of law. And secession is illegal .
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What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.
The usual claim for independence has historical roots.
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That's the funny thing with the situation. Both sides screw up so bad there is literally no-one to support here. Whatever comment you make in favor for one will be immediately counter by comments that are equally reasonable for the other one.
Well, if you were the Catalonian government and you wanted to push for independence, what would you do instead? Or are you saying that pushing for independence itself is a screw up?
E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your neighbors for decades can be a good start.
Those events are never unfolding in an instant, but are the consequences of years of complex shenanigans.
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- Which threats has the Catalonian government issued? - Sure, but it's kinda hard to have an orderly vote when you have the National Guard descending on you and trying to stop it.
Reports of threats from Catalonians themselves. It's true Spain did wrong too.
Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
> 5) Other regions of Spain, such as Pamplona or Euskadi, yeah...not sure how well informed your are...Pamplona is NOT a region, but the capital of a region.
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But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.
Pretty much every constitution makes secession unconstitutional.