Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 785 posts

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#31

Post by pbhjpbhj »

beojan wrote: post #10
adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants?

As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so?

If the vote has been carried out properly then there would be a leg to stand on.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#32

Post by alvatar »

ryanlol wrote: post #14
alvatar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

Show examples. https://spanishpolice.github.io/

As I said, the propaganda machine is more developed in one side. The story is related by those who have a stronger interest. I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist. And I've lived in the region for 6 years, there are many other forms of violence as well. But you can look it up on the internet. You won't find a web index with hundreds of videos though, that doesn't surprise me.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#34

Post by icebraining »

gonvaled wrote: post #20
adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful. People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms. The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be…

The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#35

Post by cczomps »

Hello everyone,i would like to a help a friend who helped me get out of a dysfunctional and abusive relationship and helped me get proof of infidelity from my ex husband's devices.If you have a similar problem or you need to hack any device or website and you require 100% guarantee and anonymity, reach out to this computer guru via email with BLACKSPOTHACK @ GMAIL DOT COM

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#36

Post by chrisbrowning »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

That probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal.

In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#37

Post by ryanlol »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31
beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

Democratic will is the will of voters, by not voting you choose to let others decide for you.

You can’t reward people for not voting, that’s just utterly insane.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#38

Post by alvatar »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#39

Post by icebraining »

sametmax wrote: post #23
empath75 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has call…

That's the funny thing with the situation. Both sides screw up so bad there is literally no-one to support here. Whatever comment you make in favor for one will be immediately counter by comments that are equally reasonable for the other one.

Well, if you were the Catalonian government and you wanted to push for independence, what would you do instead? Or are you saying that pushing for independence itself is a screw up?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#40

Post by Radim »

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Sure, but the question is, which population?

A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset.

Otherwise there's this icky question of what subset, what "social unit", is allowed to claim independence? Spain? Catalunya only? Barcelona only? La Rambla? Jose down the street, as an individual, in his own referendum-of-one?

This ad-absurdum may sound extreme, but there's really no fundamental difference there. The government astutely identified this as a "slippery slope", with brute power as the primary differentiator in practice.

Post reply on HN