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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#421

Post by astronautjones »

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

this was all brought about by Rajoy's current conservative government breaking tradition and taking away Catalonia's autonomous privileges

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#422

Post by ben_w »

narag wrote: post #357
ben_w wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the fundamental difference between a colony and any other patch of territory?

Are you serious?

Yes, I am. While people displaced by a colony are obviously disadvantaged, the colony itself and its residents are not.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#423

Post by gonvaled »

ben_w wrote: post #147
gonvaled wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the other side indoctrinates, didn´t you know that!?

It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I pass on my values, you tell fairytales, they indoctrinate their young.

Excellent! Do you have more irregular verbs?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#425

Post by Boothroid »

narag wrote: post #335
dan_mctree wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. If they send in troops, and should those troops fire on civilians, the Spanish may well lose international support. They were heavily condemned just for their police actions around the referendum. There also aren't that many countries that have serious internal strife in the western world anyway, that point is…

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. That's absolutely wrong. And thinking that Spain will need to fire on civilians is ridiculous. Either wishful thinking or you are ridiculously misinformed.

Well, I never thought I'd see police in an EU member state physically attacking their fellow citizens in an attempt to prevent them from voting FFS, but that doesn't change the fact it happened. If they were willing to go that far, why not further?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#426

Post by dragonwriter »

zeveb wrote: post #304
fusiongyro wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

> Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States, or to the people.

Alternatively, since secession would obviate the requirements Constitutionally binding on the State, it could only be done through Amendment, and, because it would remove it's equal representation in the Senate, not even by that means.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#427

Post by simion314 »

detaro wrote: post #103
simion314 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

If the referendum is invalid, even more reason to let it happen if you can't make it go away. Ignore it, make sure those friendly to you promote the idea of participating especially if you are against it. If "leave" doesn't have a clear victory, you can point to it for why you are against them leaving. If they do, your position is at least not worse than it is now, and probably better since you haven't burned most of…

Maybe you are right, but the scenario is this: 1 a group of people organizes a referendum or something similar 2 someone else complains at the Constitutional Court or whatever is the institution that has(by law) decide if the act is constitutional or not 3 if the thing was declared illegal the institution that has (by law) stop the illegal thing must act

My country has a similar constitution, a region can't separate unless the constitution is changed. Probably this is not fair for some regions but it is how it is, you can't decide to ignore constitution, not sure how this is in your country. I was hoping that in future EU would unite us and we get rid of the nationalistic views and finally borders.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#428

Post by pvaldes »

sigotirandolas wrote: post #82
harperlee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

Do you have any proof about indoctrination of children beyond mere anecdote, hearsay, or accusations from unionist organizations? The indoctrination argument is an argument that just got popular recently for usage by unionists, but was almost unheard before. As far as I know, it hasn’t been validated by court on any occasion.

Can you place this countries in the map? Catalonia, Spain, Portugal, France, England, and Germany. Colour each one in different shades and name their capitals.

http://elmunicipio.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/mapa-adoctr...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#429

Post by ben_w »

nemo44x wrote: post #341
ben_w wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…

If the alternative is genocide then I'll take my chances. Asymmetric warfare is a real option and with enough turned generals and armed forces you'd have access to the same high powered weapons and the people could form a militia as well.

Genocide isn’t the alternative but rather the escalation in the hypothetical where the 2nd Amendment is relevant. The US does have nukes, after all.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#430

Post by vkou »

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Donald Trump was elected with a smaller mandate then 38% of the voting population. Brexit was done with a smaller mandate then 38% of the voting population.

Can we get a do-over on those?

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