Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#101

Post by simias » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #41

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.

"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets.

Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#102

Post by vilmosi » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won

The UK government thought like you.

It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass.

And here we are today.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#103

Post by detaro » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #46

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

If the referendum is invalid, even more reason to let it happen if you can't make it go away. Ignore it, make sure those friendly to you promote the idea of participating especially if you are against it. If "leave" doesn't have a clear victory, you can point to it for why you are against them leaving. If they do, your position is at least not worse than it is now, and probably better since you haven't burned most of the goodwill people have towards the government.

(It's my understanding that the laws passed by the local catalonian parliament that said things would happen as a consequence of the referendum result were thoroughly voided before the referendum due to being against both spanish and catalonian rules. At that point, one should be able to treat the referendum as just a poll to inform future politics)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#104

Post by narag » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #76

simion314 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Referendums are a way of converting democratic mandates into decisions; but the democratic mandate doesn't go away just because the referendum isn't valid. More than 50% (70 of 135) of the democratically elected local parliament voted for independence too.

The referendum was not just illegal, it was clearly rigged. The local parliament lack the power the vote for independence, that's just a farce.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#105

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #77

harperlee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

> indoctrination of former children that now can vote. That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them. You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.

Only the other side indoctrinates, didn´t you know that!?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#106

Post by tomp » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #28

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

To add to that, the validity of the votes are questionable in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu... > Due to the many irregularities and to the actions taken by the national police and civil guard, the international observers, invited by the Generalitat, declared that the referendum results could not be considered valid as the process failed to meet the minimum international…

I'm guessing "national police" referrs to Spanish police and their brutal suppression of the voting, not Catalan police.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#107

Post by ecshafer » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #46

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

This is really not a useful argument. Self determination is a natural right. The idea that it's against the law to seek it doesn't work when the people themselves are arguing they don't want to be under that law.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#108

Post by harperlee » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #77

harperlee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

> indoctrination of former children that now can vote. That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them. You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.

Well I am referring to public schools. Public schools are controlled by the local government, and there are lots of complaints that options for parents that want teaching in Spanish for their children, for example, are close to non-existing. The teaching language is mandatorily Catalan until age 12, and then onwards chosen by the teacher, which is appointed by the local government.

If you want education that resembles what is taught in public schools of the rest of the country, you need to pay for it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#109

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #59

What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal"). I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values…

Inaction has always been the EU's prefered MO. Only when the shit really hits the fan will they act.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#110

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #57

chrisbrowning wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Russia support Catalan independence?

Divide and conquer.