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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#81
post #6

I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?

So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

Indeed, there are plenty that say it's only a minority of Catalans that want independence. I have no idea. But I do think the idea of legitimacy is questionable - those against independence point to the constitution, but it's not like those are tablets of stone is it? Constitutions are a work of man, and states come and go, along with their laws. At what point does Madrid's rule become tyrannical? Just interested from a philosophical point of view, though certainly I'm thankful I'm not one of the ones in danger of a Spanish baton to the head.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#82

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

Do you have any proof about indoctrination of children beyond mere anecdote, hearsay, or accusations from unionist organizations? The indoctrination argument is an argument that just got popular recently for usage by unionists, but was almost unheard before. As far as I know, it hasn’t been validated by court on any occasion.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#83

The problem is not so much about Catalonia and Spain. There are plenty of such regions and ethnic groups in pretty much every country on the continent. If the ball starts rolling, it can mean going back a few centuries.

Actually when visiting Spain I was really surprised how much of a federation it is vs a single unified country. If Spain is a federation, and Europe is a federation, dies it make sense to keep both?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#84

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

>It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem.

Did they? The EU doesn't support Catalan independence, the US doesn't support the movement, the Catalan independence has 0 backing from any outside source, while most countries see this as an internal affair within Spain. Madrid even loosened rules on Spanish companies, allowing them to easily move their headquarters to Madrid, triggering an exodus out of Barcelona. The response was certainly heavy-handed, but the table is definitely in Madrid's favor.

>Here we are as Catalan declares independence, which it seems can either turn into a civil war, a flat-out failure with everyone arrested, Spain eating some humble pie to get them back to the table, or Spain just accepting Catalan is gone.

Catalan has 0 outside support and the support within the region is fractured as well, with Barcelona split on opinion. Many major companies have already moved their headquarters from Barcelona to Madrid. Spain has constitutional powers vis-a-vis Article 155 to impose authority. All signs point to this independence movement being a flop.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#85
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Everyone keeps talking about the constitution as if it is set in stone. The constitution was made by people, 50 years ago. It can and should be changed to reflect new realities.

And those people probably put in rules on how to change it, e.g. two-third majority vote.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#86
post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has call…

> With the EU there, it seems like breakups like this don't need to go any worse than splitting up North and South Carolina, for example.

This isn't really a great example, as North and South Carolina weren't really ever a single entity (even when there was a Province of Carolina, North and South Carolina were separate within it). They were both original US states.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#87
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the question is, which population ? A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. Otherwise there's this icky question of what subset, what "social unit", is allowed to claim independence? Spain? Catalunya only? Barcelona only? La Rambla? Jose down the street, as an individual, in his own referendum-of-one? This ad-absurdum…

This was to be discussed while organizing the referendum. Sadly, the Spanish government refused to even consider the idea.

I know and agree! But that's completely orthogonal to my point.

The new Catalan government (or any other government) may find itself presented with the same question, in the future. The writing is on the wall, in this all-or-nothing, binary age (cf. libertarians).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#88
Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia.

1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no

2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but it is illegal to vote for independence from Spain. The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political.

3) Despite being illegal, the Catalan people mobilized to express their opinion on 1-O. This was a popular expression, but not a democratic mandate since the votes were not supported by any international body and were not conducted in a public or transparent manner. Only 38% of Cataluá citizens voted, the remaining 62% did not participate in this vote.

4) Catalonia is a very strong autonomous region, with many economic links with Europe and the rest of Spain. Catalonia wants to receive more money and contribute less to the whole of Spain, which has led to certain tensions and a very unsympathetic attitude. Spanish politicians are particularly incompetent and corrupt, as are Catalan politicians who are accused of various flagrant corruption processes.

5) Other regions of Spain, such as Pamplona or Euskadi, have more arguments for independence, but they chose coexistence within the democratic framework. The government usually negotiates

6) The independentistas have voted secretly, they have not stood up to those who vote for them. The declaration of independence is temporary and ineffective. It will not provoke any conversation or dialogue, by the points expressed above.

7) Spain will apply Article 155, which will replace all the political, administrative and social structures of Catalonia's autonomy. Catalan politicians face criminal charges and high treason and will be tried by them. Independence fighters will argue for love, equality, brotherhood and happiness, while trying to shield themselves from the European Union and universal values. The world cannot understand their will, as they have been executed outside the democratic framework. On the contrary.

8) The republic has been proclaimed to conceal acts of corruption and incompetence on both sides. the solution is to dissolve the parliament and call elections. But democratic elections, not using the tools of any banana republic.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#89
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any more Catalan elections or the independence parties were banned from standing in them.

Mmmm, that would degenerate rapidly into civil disobedience. It is hard to see how the central Spanish government can change the opinions of a big part of Catalan society by playing hard ball. I would say that the harder they go, the most people they antagonize.

And therein lies the problem: 15 years ago the amount of pro-independence was relatively low, but the Central government has refused to take the demands of the Catalan government seriously.

The current political class ruling in Spain is completely overwhelmed on how to deal with a changing society, and the structure of the Spanish State is inflexible, to the point of having to argue that in order for a region to push for the changes they feel they are entitled to, first they need to reform the Constitution, something that is impossible to achieve since the reforms they want to implement are blocked by exactly the same people that would block a reform of the Constitution. Go figure.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#90
post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

True, Catalans factual issues are understandable, but this was an improper way to change things. It's nicer than fixed elections with fake votes, but it's almost as biased.

How else should they have done it?
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