Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#41

Post by 6t6t6t6 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> it seems can either turn into a civil war

When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#42

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #30

Numberwang wrote: post #3

This will end badly...

Eh, I think it depends. If the Spanish government now takes over the Catalonian government and schedules new elections, and the anti⁻independence parties win by a reasonable margin, it may deflate the whole thing. If there's actual major popular support for independence, then yeah, I don't see how the Spanish government can defuse that grenade without major concessions, which I don't see Rajoy accepting, so it could…

If Catalonia somehow cedes from Spain/EC then there will probably be repercussions around Europe.

I was extremely surprised the other day to see a Welsh person who I'm acquainted with calling for civil war against the English. I sincerely hope there are not enough with such madness to make any thing viable in that respect, but the do seem to be substantial communities in other regions of the EC where things could kick off too.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#43

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #34

gonvaled wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful. People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms. The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be…

The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.

True, and this already happened in the last elections to the Catalan Parliament (Generalitat). But it's sad to fake referendums by hijacking elections, which exist for completely different reasons. This just mixes and confounds lots of different issues, and makes parliamentary elections meaningless.

The question of independence is complex enough that warrants a dedicated vote.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#44

Post by icebraining » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

alvatar wrote: post #11

beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side

Thus supporting the case that Catalonia is being dragged down by Spain - even their propaganda machines are better! :D

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#45

Post by yellowapple » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

alvatar wrote: post #32

ryanlol wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show examples. https://spanishpolice.github.io/

As I said, the propaganda machine is more developed in one side. The story is related by those who have a stronger interest. I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist. And I've lived in the region for 6 years, there are many other forms of violence as well. But you can look it up on the internet. You won't find a web index with hundreds of videos though, that doesn't su…

"I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist."

Do you have any links to specific videos?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#46

Post by simion314 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#47

Post by MatthewWilkes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

jvzr wrote: post #25

ellius wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

I was in Barcelona the three days before Spain's ultimatum on October 19. And fwiw I saw hundreds of Catalonian flags hanging from the balconies, and very few (less than 5) Spanish flags. It doesn't mean much, but at least in Barcelona it seems that citizens are concerned.

That's interesting, I was also in Barcelona last week and I saw slightly more Spanish flags than Catalan.

I think the real problem is that Spain have consistently blocked a peaceful referendum. I don't believe Catalonia would vote to leave in a fair vote, but I do feel that the repressive actions of the Kingdom of Spain on this matter are the kind of thing that could justify declaring independence unilaterally.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#48

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

Radim wrote: post #40

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Sure, but the question is, which population ? A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. Otherwise there's this icky question of what subset, what "social unit", is allowed to claim independence? Spain? Catalunya only? Barcelona only? La Rambla? Jose down the street, as an individual, in his own referendum-of-one? This ad-absurdum…

This was to be discussed while organizing the referendum. Sadly, the Spanish government refused to even consider the idea.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#49

Post by ryanlol » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

chrisbrowning wrote: post #36

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

That probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal. In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.

Not true. It states that this kind of a referendum is invalid.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#50

Post by nubol » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:12 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

In my opinion the referendum was not lawful because: 1- Was not legal, so the participation was low. 2- There were serious irregularities in the voting system.

I'm against the violence and I think that the independence of a region is something morally right, but I don't consider that the referendum 1-O legitimizes that the Govern of Catalunya declares the independence of Catalunya in an unilateral manner. I think the Catalan Govern is cheating in its own benefit.