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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#341

Post by chasing »

siliconc0w wrote: post #262

To make this a bit more abstract: Bob is a big wheel over at SomeCompany. Bob is outside work drinking with some friends, say Eve, and runs into Alice. Alice joins them and while she doesn't currently work for SomeCompany she indicates to Bob she would like to join. Bob, like most people, hangs out with a lot of people with similar interests/skill-sets/abilities. As the night wanes, Bob flirts with Alice. Alice decli…

I think you're right: Alice has established from the start that it's a professional relationship. Continuing to flirt with her is inappropriate. There's no work-life balance element to this: Bob's welcomed to try to get laid. But he should find someone else. Other fish in the sea.

For better or worse, that's one of the trade-offs of being a "big wheel." You have to consider how your actions might affect a whole constellation of people around you.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#342

Post by chasing »

coss wrote: post #259

Reading these comments makes me really depressed for the future of our society. Let me get this straight - 1. Don't go out with co-workers. 2. Don't make friends with co-workers. 3. Def. never drink with co-workers. Have we really become this sensitive? There's a voice in me that's screaming 'fuck off' to this kind of attitude. I can't quite articulate why it infuriates me so much.

That's what you've taken from all of this? Don't drink with co-workers?

I don't think that's what's causing the outrage, here...

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#343

Post by cperciva »

obstinate wrote: post #320
cperciva wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "workplace umbrella", as you put it, follows him wherever he interacts with coworkers due to his position of power over them Did I miss something here? My understanding from what McClure wrote is that he was interacting with someone who wasn't a co-worker.

Someone seeking a job that you control can probably be said to be like a coworker for the purposes of analyzing power imbalances.

So a purely social drink with a non-coworker immediately becomes a workplace event when they ask about the possibility of working at your company? Ok, I can sort of see that... but I hope that situation never arises for me, because there's no way I'd be able to switch from "social" to "work" modes that fast.

In any event, I'm not sure that "a job you control" was the case here: It sounds like he (quite rightly) handed that off to someone else and had nothing to do with the hiring decision. It does seem like he should have been clearer to the applicant about not being part of that decision, though.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#344

Post by julianmarq »

ithinkinstereo wrote: post #333
julianmarq wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He also brings up that drinks were involved, but practically every company/vc sponsored event in the valley has alcohol involved So... he's not lying? > That doesn't make it okay to proposition an attendee you talked to about an open job position afterwards over FACEBOOK and bring up said job as part of your come-on. I mean this is literally the textbook definition of sexual harassment. Everyone knows that, includi…

I'd rather not turn this into a pedantic argument where we parse every word, sentence, and phrase. But I'll respond because I think we prob agree more than disagree and trust that you have good intentions and want a dialogue. > So... he's not lying? Yes, but my argument is that's besides the point; it's an irrelevant detail entirely to whether or not his actions were totally inexcusable. > Everyone knows that, includ…

> I'd rather not turn this into a pedantic argument where we parse every word, sentence, and phrase. But I'll respond because I think we prob agree more than disagree and trust that you have good intentions and want a dialogue.

I have no interest in a dialogue with you.

First, I only really wanted you to clarify the "deligitimizes" claim, but I now know that that isn't going to happen.

Second, you called me an "apologist of sexual harassers", any possibility of rational dialogue died at that point, you knew that, and your trying to downplay it now with your poor attempt at presenting yourself as rational and open to discussion isn't changing that. Hell, you'd probably have been better off owning up to the baseless accusation.

So, I'm mostly going to ignore this reply, except for the three most glaringly misguided claims:

> What you are accusing me of doing, is what you are doing yourself to me, no?

I didn't accuse you of being an "apologist of sexual harassers" so... no.

> I don't think you can go too overboard calling out this type of predatory behavior

You know that "having them killed" would fit this statement, right? You really ought to phrase yourself better or drop the misanthropy, people aren't as terrible or as incorregible as you think they are.

> Also, you mention "huge amount of false or exaggerated accusations", but by your own admission, and by McClure himself, all these accusations of him being a serial creep are true. So not false, and not exaggerated.

So, because the ones about McClure were true, all of them are true. Again, don't you see how that could be easily turned against you? If someone tomorrow were to accuse you of harassment, you can't possibly defend yourself without displaying some hypocrisy regarding these statements.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#345

Post by gcatalfamo »

yorwba wrote: post #323
nindalf wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as black and white as you try and portray it. Sure, if the other person says "sorry, I'm busy", that's a definite no. But what if they say is "sorry I'm busy, perhaps some other time"? Are they actually busy and do they actually mean that? Or is it a polite rejection? At this point, you need to figure out based on body language which one they mean. If you guess wrong and ask again, you're a sexual harasser.…

> At this point, you need to figure out based on body language which one they mean. Or you could ask for clarification. To get a definite answer, you should not ask the same kind of question that got you an ambiguous response last time, but instead directly address that ambiguity.

That's not how romantic relationship work, asking for clarification of ambiguities in a phase where 90% of things done and said are pure ambiguity

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#346

Post by gcatalfamo »

SeeDave wrote: post #15

Not sure what to say, or how to make things whole for his victims as there is a very wide spectrum of consequence between 'boys will be boys' and capital punishment. I really encourage him to think in terms of 'next steps' to make amends when it comes to those affected by his behavior. Anything less, in my completely and totally unqualified opinion, is but self-serving lip service.

"his victims"

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#347

Post by thatswrong0 »

chasing wrote: post #342
coss wrote: post #259

Reading these comments makes me really depressed for the future of our society. Let me get this straight - 1. Don't go out with co-workers. 2. Don't make friends with co-workers. 3. Def. never drink with co-workers. Have we really become this sensitive? There's a voice in me that's screaming 'fuck off' to this kind of attitude. I can't quite articulate why it infuriates me so much.

That's what you've taken from all of this? Don't drink with co-workers? I don't think that's what's causing the outrage, here...

I'm pretty sure OP is referring to a bunch of other comments here that were saying those exact things - that to avoid such a situations from arising in the first place, refrain from doing anything non-work related with coworkers.

Which is all hilarious to me because I'm friends with a lot of my coworkers, drink with them, and even have had the audacity to casually (and mutually) flirt with a couple of them. Based on what I've been reading in these comments, my career ought to be crumbling down by now.

I think some commenters are focusing too much on the non-professional aspect and not enough on the power-imbalance aspect presented in some of these cases.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#348

Post by Latty »

TylerE wrote: post #107
orthoganol wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because he wanted to pepper in details like "It was over drinks and I thought it was social", aka actually defend his actions while renouncing them on the surface. The "upcoming discussions" with 500 associates reads like he's looking to get back onboard.

Classic non-apology apology. "I'm sorry you were offended".

It wasn't though - he specifically noted his actions were wrong every time. It was very specifically an apology for his actions, not for offense caused alone.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#349

Post by [deleted] »

TylerE wrote: post #107
orthoganol wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because he wanted to pepper in details like "It was over drinks and I thought it was social", aka actually defend his actions while renouncing them on the surface. The "upcoming discussions" with 500 associates reads like he's looking to get back onboard.

Classic non-apology apology. "I'm sorry you were offended".

[deleted]

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#350

Post by ge96 »

This is how I feel anytime I want to ask a girl out, that I'll come across as a creep haha. I should probably stop watching them through their window.

Edit: this reminds me of the Dove guy from American Apparel happened to listen to some podcasts (too many) about him.

I just wish I believed in myself more and wasn't so hesitant/worry about "getting in trouble"

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