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Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

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Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#101

Post by luord »

comstock wrote: post #35

It's not really possibly to provide solid advice, nobody here knows the full details of the situation. But here's what I (might) do: 1. Ask them to put everything in writing, if it isn't already in writing. 2. If you're thinking about quiting, talk to a lawyer. 3. If you quit, consider making a case against them for constructive dismissal. I'd probably quit. It sounds horrible, and I couldn't work in that environment…

This is basically what I was going to write. Having it in writing I hadn't thought of but it's definitely important.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#102

Post by julianmarq »

watwut wrote: post #83
contingencies wrote: post #23

Leave but before you do so find a chance to talk to a nontrivial percentage of the staff and explain that this thing happened, affected you deeply and it was never your intent to upset anyone and it has really negatively impacted your experience at a formative stage in your career so whoever made the accusation could they please be aware in future that they may have it wrong about people and accusations can hurt. No…

That will come across as passive aggressive or manipulative at best. You need considerable charisma to be able to pull something like that off. It is nice as vengeance dream, but in practice would turn against him. It is therefore bad advice.

> but in practice would turn against him

... How? If he's leaving, exactly what they could do against him for you to say "it would turn against him"? Nothing, of course, that's the point of quitting, but I'm all eyes to your take on it.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#103

Post by imron »

le-mark wrote: post #74
zabana wrote: post #45

Not judging you but it could just be that you might come across as """creepy""" (notice the three pairs of quotes here). The issue is that you're in a hyper sensitive environment with hyper sensitive people. If you try and initiate a conversation with certain women (even to be polite because you dgaf about them) that dislike you, it can be considered """pushy""" and/or """creepy""" (even though there's no objective p…

I've concluded over the years that I must give off some sort of creepy vibe at tmes. It's wierd, it seems to be situational or based on the other party, because it's only happens about 95% of the time. I've found that I just seem to make some women uncomfortable. Sometimes it's been justified, and I've learned what not to do, like sitting to close to a lab partner in college. But then other times, I'm still mystified…

> like why was asking a co-worker if she was still running half marathons a reason for her to respond "how do you know that? why do you care?" in an an accusatory manner

Well, the devil is in the details. How do you know that she runs half marathons?

Do you know it because 2 years ago she posted it to Facebook and you've gone through all her old Facebook posts and know that she once ran half-marathons? Creepy.

Or, do you know it because 6 months ago you were having a conversation with her and she brought up that she runs half-marathons, but she's now forgotten that conversation. Not creepy, she just has a bad memory.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#104

Post by tom_mellior »

peoplewindow wrote: post #71
fjfkdjfjfjd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your commend and advice! Definitely looking forward to keeping my head low and seeing how much more I can accomplish in these next few months I have left. I believe I fall into the socially-awkward/inexperienced category. Are there any resources you could suggest to learn more about social dynamics?

Observe, watch. And be aware that these things aren't really fair or systematic. Like the guy says, exactly the same behaviour can be interpreted as creepy or giggle-inducing depending on whether the guy doing it is attractive, confident, successful etc. You sound like you're not confident and as you're an intern, you're not financially successful either. So the bar for you to be not """creepy""" to use ops phrasing…

> I'd suggest watching a lot of comedy shows and soaps

Those (at least the ones I watch) are full of sexual innuendo. Not exactly the kind of humor you would want to "learn" if you come off as a creepy sexual predator.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#105

Post by matheist »

imron wrote: post #103
le-mark wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've concluded over the years that I must give off some sort of creepy vibe at tmes. It's wierd, it seems to be situational or based on the other party, because it's only happens about 95% of the time. I've found that I just seem to make some women uncomfortable. Sometimes it's been justified, and I've learned what not to do, like sitting to close to a lab partner in college. But then other times, I'm still mystified…

> like why was asking a co-worker if she was still running half marathons a reason for her to respond "how do you know that? why do you care?" in an an accusatory manner Well, the devil is in the details. How do you know that she runs half marathons? Do you know it because 2 years ago she posted it to Facebook and you've gone through all her old Facebook posts and know that she once ran half-marathons? Creepy. Or, do…

And there's quite a wide range of alternatives in here, ranging from "not creepy at all" to "extrememly creepy".

you have established a rapport where you talk about weekend activities, and she has mentioned half marathons to you in particular

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Not problematic at all; by standard social conventions you have implicit permission to ask about a topic that was previously deemed acceptable. Everyone knows how you know about marathons.

---

you have established a rapport where you talk about weekend activities, and she has NOT mentioned half marathons to you

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Might cause a moment's confusion but is probably fine — she might think you heard it from a mutual acquaintance, and marathons are not so intimate that they'd be off limits if you have previously discussed equally intimate subjects.

---

you are only casually acquainted, have had maybe one or two conversations in group settings and the two of you did not directly interact in this group

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Too forward — you probably don't have implicit permission to bring up personal subjects that she did not explicitly bring up to you first. The social standard here in this situation would probably be to determine her attitude towards you by asking less intimate questions (e.g. "Did you have a good weekend?") that give her the option to signal whether she's interested in more interaction. ("Yup." -> not interested. don't ask about marathons. "Yes, I went running, how about you?" -> potentially interested.)

---

you are not acquainted, or have met once or twice but have not spoken to each other outside of when it's required for work

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Nope, way too forward. Most people take a gradual approach ("Did you have a good weekend?"), and the fact that you're not doing that is a signal that you don't understand social nuances and are potentially dangerous. Best case scenario, she makes a polite excuse and leaves.

---

you are not acquainted, and also have a reputation for not understanding social norms

"Are you still running half marathons?"

She's thinking of the best way to make unambiguously sure that you don't talk to her again.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#106

Post by tom_mellior »

fishnchips wrote: post #32

Those accusations can come from weird places. I was once accused of sexual harassment by a male coworker (I'm a straight male, and a father of two). When summoned by HR to face the victim it turned out that he felt that touching his screen (when explaining something) violated his personal space. Not that it is necessarily relevant to your case but if you feel innocent then you probably are - unless you're a psychopat…

Wow, that's quite extreme. But it doesn't have to be a crazy person like that.

Some more everyday activities that might make someone uncomfortable in the workplace even without direct interactions:

- wearing T-shirts with scantily clad women in the workplace (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/13/living/matt-taylor-shirt-p...)

- wearing other T-shirts deemed inappropriate (heavy metal T-shirts with pentagrams or whatever; once, in the US, I wore a T-shirt referencing marijuana to a casual restaurant and was told off)

- displaying political preferences or religious ideas not shared and potentially considered dangerous by others

- having a desktop background image deemed inappropriate (scantily clad women, again)

- visiting websites or watching YouTube videos deemed inappropriate during your breaks

I'm not saying complaints about any of these are justified (although I don't think the workplace needs to be sexualized), but these are things people do complain about, in the real world. If you "feel innocent", and even if you pass the famous "I asked my female friends and they said it was OK" test, that still doesn't mean that nobody can complain about these things.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#107

Post by le-mark »

matheist wrote: post #105
imron wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like why was asking a co-worker if she was still running half marathons a reason for her to respond "how do you know that? why do you care?" in an an accusatory manner Well, the devil is in the details. How do you know that she runs half marathons? Do you know it because 2 years ago she posted it to Facebook and you've gone through all her old Facebook posts and know that she once ran half-marathons? Creepy. Or, do…

And there's quite a wide range of alternatives in here, ranging from "not creepy at all" to "extrememly creepy". you have established a rapport where you talk about weekend activities, and she has mentioned half marathons to you in particular "Are you still running half marathons?" Not problematic at all; by standard social conventions you have implicit permission to ask about a topic that was previously deemed accep…

Yeah that all makes a lot of sense; the scenario was: more than acquaintances, worked together for over a year, she was QA on a project I was on, we talked everyday. She was very open about her life, and talked openly about the half marathons. Then I ran into her at a beer meetup with alumni from the same company, I hadn't talked to her in over a year. I was trying to make conversation, so I asked about the half marathons. That was the context, very not creepy imo. But I welcome feedback on that :)

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#108

Post by watwut »

julianmarq wrote: post #102
watwut wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will come across as passive aggressive or manipulative at best. You need considerable charisma to be able to pull something like that off. It is nice as vengeance dream, but in practice would turn against him. It is therefore bad advice.

> but in practice would turn against him ... How? If he's leaving, exactly what they could do against him for you to say "it would turn against him"? Nothing, of course, that's the point of quitting, but I'm all eyes to your take on it.

Network of people you know and their willingness to work with you again are quite helpful in both getting new jobs and telling you how the workplace really looks like before you go to interview.

Also, what is the point of leaving as parent suggested? It is that you get to look like a good guy in the end and she gets to feel bad/look bad in the eyes of the management. If he ends up looking like manipulative asshole, then he won't get that.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#109

Post by nhaehnle »

Udik wrote: post #47
auserperson wrote: post #24

Nobody is accusing you of sexual harassment. They said what they said. You are making some woman uncomfortable. Try to first believe what they said instead of getting paranoid. You are an intern and probably don't have a lot experience on professional behavior. You might be trying to get be friendly but that is coming out as creepy. Stop trying to do small talk if the other people don't start small talk with you neve…

What about the professional social skills of the person that made the complaint? Couldn't she have raised the matter personally instead of going straight to a manager? And how toxic is a workplace where you can be accused of unspecified behaviours by some unknown co-worker and be automatically on the wrong side, without any clue as to know who accused you and why?

I understand that somebody may not want to raise such a matter personally.

The real problem is that OP wasn't even given the details of the accusation. Because even assuming that the accusations are correct, there is likely no malice involved here (not by OP, taking his word on this, and probably also not by the other person, given that he's in an internship). Without the details, OP has no opportunity to correct his behavior and might make the same mistake in the future, whatever it was. That way, everybody loses.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#110

Post by DanBC »

freeflight wrote: post #91
DanBC wrote: post #62

> I realize some of these questions could be viewed as hitting on someone, but that was not my intention, and believe that question was cleared up once they responded to me that they were going to see their boyfriend/girlfriend. Multiple people felt the need to tell you that they have a partner. Why do you think the problem is non-existent?

When the question is "What do you do on the weekend", then, of course, people with partners will most likely respond with something involving their partners. How does that imply a problem with the OP, except his inability to magically know the relationship status of his coworkers? Which would be the only ability allowing him to evade such answers to a rather casual question. Maybe he's new in town and looking for pla…

OP has interpreted this as not being g a problem. I'm looking out that if many people felt the need to drop the "I'm not interested in you, and I have a partner so back off" line then maybe there was a problem.
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