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Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

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Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#91
post #62

> I realize some of these questions could be viewed as hitting on someone, but that was not my intention, and believe that question was cleared up once they responded to me that they were going to see their boyfriend/girlfriend. Multiple people felt the need to tell you that they have a partner. Why do you think the problem is non-existent?

When the question is "What do you do on the weekend", then, of course, people with partners will most likely respond with something involving their partners.

How does that imply a problem with the OP, except his inability to magically know the relationship status of his coworkers? Which would be the only ability allowing him to evade such answers to a rather casual question.

Maybe he's new in town and looking for places to go to during the weekend? Is the weekend question really that inappropriate in such a context?

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#92
post #74
post #45

Not judging you but it could just be that you might come across as """creepy""" (notice the three pairs of quotes here). The issue is that you're in a hyper sensitive environment with hyper sensitive people. If you try and initiate a conversation with certain women (even to be polite because you dgaf about them) that dislike you, it can be considered """pushy""" and/or """creepy""" (even though there's no objective p…

I've concluded over the years that I must give off some sort of creepy vibe at tmes. It's wierd, it seems to be situational or based on the other party, because it's only happens about 95% of the time. I've found that I just seem to make some women uncomfortable. Sometimes it's been justified, and I've learned what not to do, like sitting to close to a lab partner in college. But then other times, I'm still mystified…

I'm going to expand on your comment a bit with regards to the whole "creepiness" thing. I think it's very important to realize just how difficult it can sometimes be to manage professional and personal relationships. I think one of the ways we tend to learn social interaction is by observing others and emulating what we see. This doesn't always lead to good outcomes. I think most people like to imagine that rules, and I don't necessarily mean rules laid out by corporate HR, but social rules, are applied equally to everyone. I don't believe this to be the case at all. Social norms can be very subjectively applied based on the people interacting.

I'll be perfectly blunt, there are a number of things about me(I'm short, skinny, not particularly attractive, definitely not smart, not exactly charismatic, a long list of other things I'm sure) that make me a rather low status person, at least if we are basing it on somewhat superficial standards. I've worked with people before who were all the things that I'm not, and had I emulated their behavior, I'm quite certain it would have come across as creepy or harassing rather fun-loving or joking. This doesn't mean that you should try to get away with as much as you can based on your perceived status, but instead that you should always be aware that very different rules may apply to you based on how others view you. It's not exactly fair, but there isn't really much that can be done aside from trying your best to be a good person.

Also, for clarity that "you" wasn't you specifically, just a general "you".

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#93

By your own description it sounds it is founded, asking what you're up to this weekend is a lead in to asking for a date. I get that wasn't your intent, but that doesn't matter, does it? Others have said find another job, that sounds like a good ideas. I probably wouldn't put this internship on my employment history. And seriously, your 20's are for getting laid as much as you can. Are you? Because if you're not (out…

In hindsight, I realize that such a question about weekend plans could be taken the wrong way. I was ultimately trying to be cordial, not to make anyone (male or female) feel I was leading on to them. On your last point, I am still a virgin now in my early-mid 20s. Never had a girlfriend or been in much of any romantic relationship. I met a girl while traveling, got her info and really connected after we were thousan…

I think it is different for everyone. But if you feel afraid about anything, work through the fear.

The worst thing that can happen asking for a date, a phone number, a coffee, or sex, is the woman says "No".

Try your best to not get fixated on one, that can lead to unlimited opportunity loss. Pursue women that are reasonably close. I had a GF about 37 miles away in Los Angeles. The driving sucked especially Friday after work. Maybe for Ms. Right it would have worked. But we weren't right for each other. My point is, proximity or propinquity is a huge factor in attraction.

A friend in NYC, whom I had a major crush on, told me it was a numbers game and to go out on some dates. And I can tell you for certain, there is a magic number of dates you have to go on before you find what you're looking for. Unfortunately I can't tell you what the magic number is. (Same thing applies to finding a job, btw)

Start figuring out what you want, but more important is what you have to offer. Don't go too deep on those lists at first, you'll figure that out as you go.

When I decided to take my friend's advice, some 10 years later, I went on okcupid. Before I found my wife, I went on a bunch of dates with really great women whom I didn't click with. I had a lot of fun with them, not sex but seeing bands, going places I don't usually go to, etc.

Dating on okcupid was a grind. I'd get 1 response for roughly every 30 messages I sent. And about 1 date for every 3-4 responses. I just sent 10-20 messages every other day for a time. Lesson: don't get discouraged.

During those dates, I learned a lot about what I wanted, what I didn't want, and what I could put up with.

When I got that response from the woman who would become my wife, she rebuffed me, saying she wasn't ready. I felt some connection with what she wrote in her profile, so I bookmarked her. Then I cyber stalked her page for a few weeks and noticed she updated it. I immediately messaged her and said I noticed the update and asked if she was now available. We text chatted for 4 hours online, then when I asked her when we could meet, she went silent. For 20 minutes. I just left the browser window open, feeling some disappointment. Again, the worst that could happen is she would say no. Turns out she had to take a phone call and we arranged a date. Lesson: persistence pays off.

When I met my wife, I knew there was a special connection. She annoyed me by her choice of restaurant- because it was so loud we couldn't hear each other. But we left and spent 5-6 hours talking after that. The rest as they say, is history.

Anyway, don't feel pressured to go right out to meet someone. That's how I feel about my 20's; I wish I had sought more dates than I did. If you're ready, just get out there, whatever that looks like to you. Be yourself, and another friend told me, don't commit fraud while dating. That was some awesome advice. I don't want to have to be an actor, I want to be me.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try to first believe what they said instead of getting paranoid. If he wouldn't believe it then he wouldn't be paranoid, the whole paranoia angle only exists because of the complete vagueness of the accusation. It's literally telling somebody "You did somebody wrong, we won't tell you what you did or to whom, but consider yourself on notice", how is anybody supposed to react to that except with complete paranoia? >…

Thanks for your comment: This is my outlook: I try to be the best person I can be and when I make mistakes, I try to know what I did so I can learn from them. I agree with you that in this case, I do not feel I have even a chance to really learn from it, other than to be very cautious. While I am trying to move forward, I don't want this to haunt me. I do not want to "creep out" people, or repulse them since people a…

Your very much welcome, as somebody on the spectrum I can relate quite a bit to your situation but can only imagine how frustrating this must be right now.

Don't let your head down too much and just keep in mind that we can't get along with everybody, it's not always all your own fault. Sometimes personalities just clash and it's best for everybody to just stay out of each other's way and do their own thing.

This does not mean that somebody is a "bad person" and the other a "good person", it simply means they just don't vibe with each other with no particular fault of anybody involved. So don't feel too guilty about this whole mess, at least as long they can't even be bothered to offer you any specifics about your supposed misbehavior.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#95

I have a question for people reading this thread (it's something I've been pondering a lot lately). If for whatever reason, person X makes person Y uncomfortable, shouldn't Y tell X about it, and X stop the behavior/languages that caused the situation? I think people make mistakes all the time, and some of them are quite honest/unintentional. What happened to "Let's learn from our mistakes?" Not to be confused with p…

In situations like this (for example if the women who mentioned having a boyfriend had been more direct "please stop trying to spend time with me") it would cause its own set of problems. An intentional harasser will insist nothing is wrong and keep coming back... at best. Some cause problems at work or become verbally/physically abusive. OP may have awkwardly stumbled into this situation, but his colleague doesn't know how to stop it without everyone getting pissed off. Is it worth HR involvement? Depends on what's been said. But it's not like they would understand each other from one conversation.

This took time for me to understand. I had an acquaintance starting at a company who was interested in my separate traveling job. When I moved to SF she said we should have dinner, we were cool, invited to her birthday. She suggested I find a souvenir for her on my next trip. Months later I gave her a nice scarf and never saw her again. She probably forgot that it was her idea! I asked her to meet up, and she'll agree, but then it never happens. If I say, "hey, why don't you tell me why we didn't meet up? I need to talk this over in person, you need to believe me", that's exactly what a harasser would do. So I've had to let this go. It might be a little uncomfortable, but no one really gains anything from fixing it, except trying to feel like I'm always right.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#96
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in that sentence do you get the idea that he "stopped 'making smalltalk'" after "they told [him] they had a boy/girlfriend "?

It sounded that to me too. That he assumed the issue is cleared and that he can continue conversation without worrying that she would interpret it as hitting. Because since he now knows she has boyfriend, therefore he is not hitting, therefore logically she is unlikely to interpret further conversation as hitting. Incidentally, that is remarkably similar to the way people on spectrum "logically" interpret humans - ha…

I see, I was interpreting the GP comment as that the OP stopped talking altogether after knowing she had a boyfriend. But you are right, it can also be interpreted that after the OP knew she had a boyfriend he changed from "small talk" to some more interesting subjects cause he felt more at ease of not being misunderstood as hitting on her.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#97

Linus Torvalds was targeted. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/06/linus_torvalds_targe... Also, the pervasive drive-by meddling of SJWs to brow-beat FOSS projects into accepting their Code of Conduct is further bullshit that is reinforced by well-meaning people that think it's a good thing to state the obvious, but then add a bunch of vague powers that can kick people out without due process.

Linus Torvalds is an arsehole who cannot behave as an adult and control his emotions.

If he was my boss, I would sue my company for allowing abusive behavior happening in the work place.

There's no excuse to do what he does, and it saddens me that a lot of good developers may choose not to work on Linux development just not to have to deal with him.

But I guess that this is what he wants. He built his little "kingdom of terror" and that way he can make sure that in his team there will never be developers who can diminish him.

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#98
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah that. Also try and engage in social activites outside of work (could be charity or whatever you're into). The goal is that you get used to human interactions with low stakes and that you get out of your own head. For example, go to a gym and be a regular member there, you'll eventually get to know the staff and be more optimistic about speaking to others (not to mention the immense benefits on health / body imag…

I'm bookmarking your comment! Thanks for your advice! I definitely could use a gym membership. And when I meet such new people, I'll try to find conversation topics that would be very unlikely to be taken the wrong way (as I have now learned, It's better not to ask people about their weekend plans as this could be viewed as hitting on them).

Asking about weekend plans (or about the previous weekend) is a pretty standard office smalltalk in the UK, but I think it's considered quite intrusive in the US.. so also depends on where you are

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#99

Nobody is accusing you of sexual harassment. They said what they said. You are making some woman uncomfortable. Try to first believe what they said instead of getting paranoid. You are an intern and probably don't have a lot experience on professional behavior. You might be trying to get be friendly but that is coming out as creepy. Stop trying to do small talk if the other people don't start small talk with you neve…

This is rich: "Believe that you're an awful person although we all know you aren't. Some delusional moron has decided they don't like you and wants to ruin your reputation. Just accept it, they are more important than you. And don't you even dare to get actual justice for you, we have this power over you now and resistance won't be tolerated."

I honestly didn't expect to see something like this in this thread. But, in hindsight, I'm not surprised, the narrative requires everything to be made about you (and with you I mean SJWs in general, not you in particular).

Re: Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts?

#100
question was cleared up once they responded to me that they were going to see their boyfriend/girlfriend

Situations where clarification requires those or similar statements share some context with those in which one person is clearly expressing a possible romantic interest in a person without a similar reciprocal interest. Multiple conversations within a relatively short time frame might reasonably be interpreted as a pattern within workplace.

On the positive side, recognizing that these situations can readily be interpreted as hitting on someone means that they are avoidable by not engaging in the behavior. Self identification of the root cause behavior also means that the allegations are not unfounded.

Good luck.

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