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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#261

Post by RobertoG »

aetherson wrote: post #245
RobertoG wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"currencies that a sovereign Scotland will not control" And that's the key thing. They would be changing masters, probably for the worst. As a former Euro supporter and now Euro sceptic I would recommend them to keep their lead in their own hand.

But that doesn't seem to be what they want. I agree about being skeptical of being a small, relatively powerless country in a currency union with a much larger economy, but that's the case for them regardless of whether they're on the Pound Sterling or the Euro.

That's my point. They can't do nothing about being a small country.

Their best option is have their own currency.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#262

Post by aembleton »

alkonaut wrote: post #227

I thought the threat of Scotland leaving was what was going to sway the Brexit vote to a clear No. I hope everyone who voted leave understood that it was the dissolution of the union they voted for, and not some backtracking into a pre-EU britain.

The referendum was not binding. The decision to leave the EU was taken by MPs.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#263

Post by RobertoG »

pjc50 wrote: post #173
ceejayoz wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also a wonderful bargaining chip for the EU to play against Theresa May in negotiating the terms of the UK's exit. Yup. "You lot can leave, but we'll take Scotland. Your choice."

Not to mention Gibraltar - everyone's overlooked this tiny rock, but Gibraltar is entirely dependent on EU freedom of movement and voted very heavily remain. It's not a coincidence that there was a Gibraltar diplomatic mission to the SNP conference, although I'm not entirely clear what they wanted other than solidarity against Brexit. Maybe Spain would let in Scotland and claim Gibraltar as their own?

Spain is already claiming Gibraltar as its own.

Is just that not the UK neither the people in Gibraltar want that. But yes, Gibraltar could face some problems when the UK leave the UE.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#264

Post by akoncius »

RobertoG wrote: post #51
aetherson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand the truth that staying in the Pound is important to Scottish voters, I don't understand why. The Euro seems like a very close substitute to the Pound. They're both strong, largely un-inflated currencies that a sovereign Scotland will not control.

"currencies that a sovereign Scotland will not control" And that's the key thing. They would be changing masters, probably for the worst. As a former Euro supporter and now Euro sceptic I would recommend them to keep their lead in their own hand.

it's a bit offtopic, but I'm curious why you changed your opinion and became euro sceptic. Could you explain ?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#266

Post by aetherson »

RobertoG wrote: post #261
aetherson wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that doesn't seem to be what they want. I agree about being skeptical of being a small, relatively powerless country in a currency union with a much larger economy, but that's the case for them regardless of whether they're on the Pound Sterling or the Euro.

That's my point. They can't do nothing about being a small country. Their best option is have their own currency.

But my point is that they don't want their own currency. Also, the EU won't let them have their own currency. So given that that's off the table, the Euro is as good as the Pound for them.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#267

Post by RobertoG »

Y_Y wrote: post #109
edblarney wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden chose not to join the Euro. Oddly - European nations that don't use the Euro are generally much better off: Norway (though not EU), Denmark, Sweden, UK. In hindsight, the UK's decision to not join the Euro is widely accepted as smart. The Euro is effectively a 'hard Germany currency' that has entrapped the periphery of Europe into a monetary system that massively favours the Germans. Maybe it could have worked…

> Oddly - European nations that don't use the Euro are generally much better off So is it that countries that took the euro were hurt by it, or that countries with already strong currencies chose not to take the euro?

It could be both.

Anyway, it's not so difficult to see why to have the flexibility of adjusting your currency, independently of the rest of the system, to suit your current situation is a good thing.

micro-services anyone?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#269

Post by Boothroid »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #184
gumby wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> given that the Catalonia argument isn't analagous to Scotland. Can you expand? They seem quite similar to me (but I have no close interest in either, so my view may be simplistic). Very much not trying to start a flame war here, just curious as your comment surprised me.

Sure thing! So Catalonia has always been a region of Spain whereas Scotland is a sovereign nation which consented to joining the UK through the Act of Union. It's only part of the UK by a statute rather than inherently being part of the 'country'. That's why Britain is referred to politically as the United Kingdom as it's a union of countries. So for Catalonia to get independence, they have a much tougher argument as…

I think your logic is flawed. You have selected an arbitrary point in history, i.e. establishment of Spain as a sovereign entity, and used that to determine that Catalonia are not a sovereign entity. Couldn't you just as easily rewind your point a few years before establishment of Spain and say ok, Catalonia is a previously sovereign entity that was absorbed into Spain, and they merely want to revert to their previous situation?

Quite apart from that, the fact is that history is never as clean as your argument suggests. If people in a certain area begin to develop their own separate conciousness, feelings of separateness, culture and so on, there comes a point at which imposition of rule by an external power becomes tyrannical.

Good luck to Catalonia, and good luck to an independent Scotland. I'm sick of the ingratitude and whinging from north of the border. I don't think I'm the only one that wishes we could have a referendum in England to boot Scotland out first.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#270

Post by Symbiote »

tzs wrote: post #259

Suppose Scotland does vote to separate from the UK, presumably with the intention of attempting to gain EU membership. My understanding, based on a whole minute or two of Googling, is that the relationship between the parts of the UK, such as Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland is similar to the relationship between the states in the United States: if you are a citizen of the union, you are automatically a…

Citizenship isn't clear at all. There's no clear concept of English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish citizenship -- we are British citizens, and European Union citizens. During the previous independence vote in Scotland, the people who voted were British, Commonwealth and EU citizens resident in Scotland.

Around 800,000 people born in Scotland live elsewhere in the UK. Millions more presumably have a parent born in Scotland, but weren't themselves.

I was born in England. I emigrated from the UK in 2015, and briefly considered registering as resident in Scotland (rather than England) just before I left, on the off-chance that Brexit went ahead without Scotland. However, the likelihood seemed remote, so I didn't consider it seriously.

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