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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#161

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #147
Someone1234 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson higher net satisfaction rates higher than Sturgeon In Scotland? I'm extremely skeptical.

There are almost continual attacks on Sturgeon from Unionists in Scotland (and from England) - read any of the comment sections on the BBC (it doesn't even have to be about Scotland...) and you'll see a lot of hate for her - everything from claims that she's making a power grab for herself, to calling her one of the krankies. It's a sad state of affairs. Having said that, I think most people would agree she's one of…

I believe the Tories size as opposition party was from an election before Brexit (and Trump obviously, this is also a referendum on him and his administration whether or not its explicit). Just how popular are Ruth Davidson and her party now?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#162

Post by lessisntmore »

ceejayoz wrote: post #143
df3 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't a speedy entry process be negotiated? My guess though is that the EU won't be keen on the UK splitting up and thus won't encourage it by providing Scotland a quick ascension. This is also a wonderful bargaining chip for the EU to play against Theresa May in negotiating the terms of the UK's exit.

> This is also a wonderful bargaining chip for the EU to play against Theresa May in negotiating the terms of the UK's exit. Yup. "You lot can leave, but we'll take Scotland. Your choice."

It's a terrible bargaining chip. Want to encourage separatist movements across the EU (think Catalonia) then this would be a great way to do it.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#163

Post by s_kilk »

edblarney wrote: post #62
byefruit wrote: post #6

What a legacy Cameron has left. Alienation of our nearest neighbours and the likely dissolution of the Union. It's also looking likely that Brexit will cause problems for the Northern Ireland peace arrangement.

The people voted, not Cameron. One could argue that the root political problem is the EU itself. Nationalist movements are on the rise across Europe: The Dutch are about to give their top choice a pretty hard core 'anti Muslim' guy. The French will have a runoff between Le Pen and probably Macron. The Sweden Democrats are polling at 22%. True Finns have incredible influence. Austrian nationalists lost the presidency…

> The people voted, not Cameron.

Cameron only offered the Brexit referendum because he was afraid of the more far-right Tories going UKIP.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#164

Post by zeristor »

sambeau wrote: post #149
untog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London independence would surely only come with the complete collapse of the UK. Or it becoming an EU-like organisation. And that's not entirely impossible - there are enough regional independence movements that it's possible to imagine it. Much more likely, though, is that everyone argues about it for decades and nothing happens.

Total collapse of the UK is looking quite possible. - Scotland is likely to go (despite what the polls say right now) - Northern Ireland is quite likely to join Ireland - God knows what Wales is going to do

Is it Schadenfreude to realise that as much as I loathe this that once we hit the tipping point and all the property investors give up on London I'll be able to afford to live there.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#165

Post by [deleted] »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #111
edblarney wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The general feeling is that this vote will now succeed." Polling for almost a year (see Wikipedia) indicates that it will not succeed - there's only one of more than a dozen or so polls that puts independence ahead - and then only by one point. 'Remain' are ahead by 10 points in the rest. The easy trump card to play is the fact that Spain and others (Belgium) will not allow Scotland to join the EU, even if they do -…

> this is not the 'Brexit horror' story the indyreffers wanted. I think its going to kill a lot of people when they see 'Brexit horror' not materializing. The UK has a powerful economy (number 5 in the world) and as such can certainly work out beneficial trade deals alone. Its not a Greece-like mess that benefits from the Euro and the Euro's backers. Without the shared currency and having a land border with other EU…

[deleted]

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#166

Post by s_kilk »

iMark wrote: post #56
nailer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, some member states are opposed to it. Which ones? Generally the EU wants more stable democracies to hold up the others.

Spain has previously come out strongly against an independent Scotland joining the EU, largely because of the issue of Catalonian independence.

More recently the Spaniards have stated they won't block Scotland from joining the EU.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#167

Post by lessisntmore »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #158
lessisntmore wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on why England is a sinking ship? I ask because you're not the first person I've heard say that, but apart from a referendum 6 months ago, what has changed?

I think the view the pound losing 20% of its value, large-scale cuts to social spending and the economic effects of Brexit yet to be felt create a sense of worry about England's financial future. Also the increase in racist attacks, xenophobia etc.

The social spending cuts came well before Brexit. The worry about the future is always there regardless (do you think Greece, Portugal or Italy are not worried about their future). The increase in racist attacks is sad, but idiots will always use any excuse. The xenophobia, other than linked to the idiots, is hard to quantify because so many people conflate wanting to leave the EU with hating europeans.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#168

Post by pbhjpbhj »

sambeau wrote: post #146
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

>Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. //

This may be an indication of the problem. To my view your opener should be "I'm a child of British parents, born in Britain and grew up in Britain. I have British children. I, and my children, live in Britain. Some of us live elsewhere in the EU."

Somewhere we've hung on to the the idea that we're a [loose] amalgam of separate nations to which we really owe our loyalty [if any is owed]. Whilst that doesn't seem to be the case in other parts of the world [corrections?]. Which other sub-divisions of single countries compete internationally in sports for example?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#169

Post by icu »

biofox wrote: post #37
pjc50 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Union has long operated as internal colonialism; this is just the next step in de-colonising the system. It'll be interesting to see how often Conservative ministers promise that there will be no border between UK and ROI but there will be a hard border between England and Scotland, despite none of this making any sense.

On the point of internal colonialism: it might have been true once, but certainly not true today. All of the countries in the union have seats in Westminster, dedicate ministers and committees, as well as their own devolved parliaments. I'd say things are much worse for counties in the North of England, than for the other countries in the UK. The nature of democracy means the majority rules, which will always be prob…

Hi biofox, there are other solutions... for example changing from a democracy to a republic.

As an aside, I think that most people don't understand these concepts because the word 'democracy' is used so much in political rhetoric and in the media that people have taken it to mean a representational system of government. For example the US is not a democracy... it is a republic, while the UK is indeed a democracy (which causes the problems that you mention). Both are still representational systems of government.

To give an extreme example say you have 3 foxes and 1 sheep at a table and all 4 of them represent a country. In a democracy the majority rules, and it would be perfectly legal for the 3 foxes to vote and eat the sheep.

However in a republic, legal limits are placed on the government (think constitution), which has implications for all citizens--but especially minorities. In a republic with a constitution that states that all citizens have the right to life and liberty, those 3 foxes could vote to eat the 1 sheep but that sheep is protected by the constitution. Therefore in that example, the vote would be illegal.

It is no coincidence that the founding fathers of the United States set America up to be a republic and why constitutional matters are so important even today.

Now having said all this I am aware that many believe that the UK has an "unwritten" or uncodified constitution. While I don't outrightly reject this concept, I believe it doesn't give a country a strong ethical or moral foundation because it does not offer clarity or consistency when ethics or morality are legally challenged. Ideally ethics and morality are codified in law so that all citizens know where they stand with regards to the power of their government.

Coming back to the issue of Scottish independence, it could be rooted in the very real problem that most people are nescient--or worse, selectively ignorant--about these issues. Unfortunately in the UK we seem to be perpetually locked in a 'treat the symptoms rather than the disease' scenario.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#170

Post by gumby »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #77
a_name wrote: post #65

However, I think it's now almost certain that if Scotland does vote to become independent they will be forced to take the Euro as currency. Is Spain now willing to allow them into the EU or will they veto their membership application because of their issues with Catalonia? Still seems like racist SNP are still in denial

I imagine Spain will do as directed by the EC given that the Catalonia argument isn't analagous to Scotland. I'd strongly disagree with your comment about the SNP being racist but obviously it's a sensitive subject. I view it as being about getting the right deal for Scotland.

> given that the Catalonia argument isn't analagous to Scotland.

Can you expand? They seem quite similar to me (but I have no close interest in either, so my view may be simplistic). Very much not trying to start a flame war here, just curious as your comment surprised me.

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