How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#261

Post by btilly » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

whatever_dude wrote: post #56

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

Just line up the incentives.

For example require the company bringing the worker in to post a bond, make it trivial for the imported worker to switch companies, and make the original company to pay the difference between what the worker's salary winds up being and what their new salary is after 2 years if they can't hold on to said worker.

If you're a company that really needs that skill, really can't hire it, and is paying above market wages, then this will not slow your hiring. But if you're trying to hire below market, it would backfire badly on you.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#262

Post by pm90 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

unprepare wrote: post #246

pm90 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. An…

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time.

I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers, at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not everyone can or wants to be a chef, or a pilot. Its really important to understand that we can't retrain everyone to fulfill certain roles.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#263

Post by mavelikara » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

Roboprog wrote: post #233

AnAnonyCowherd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I work, they're filling roles of what would have been called an engineering clerk, back in the old days. Jobs for which a BS is an over-qualification. The visa holders are vastly underpaid for their education level, while people who would be a better fit can't get their foot in the door, and get a huge boost to their income, because they don't have a degree. I think the "as we all know" is that big corporations…

That's exactly it: indentured servants. I wonder if Canada's immigration policy that Microsoft is holding up is geared toward indentured servanthood, or citizenship?

Canada has a point based system which ties the visa to the employee not the employer. Also there are straightforward paths to citizenship.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#264

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #185

msabalau wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasi…

America absolutely has a culture. Have you never lived in another country? Our houses, cars, schools, music, food, pass times, athletics, language (slang, dialects), entertainment, government, habits, communication (verbal, body language), aspirations, societal expectations, humor, things we find offensive/inoffensive, etc.

[deleted]

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#265

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #240

maxerickson wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works. There will be specific Americans who benefit less than specific immigrants, but the net effect of immigration has pretty much always been a benefit to the economy. Why should we put the interests of specific Americans ahead of the interests of Americans overall?

He's saying we should have a preference for existing Americans before we handicap foreigners. But with re Americans over other Americans, yes, it makes sense to handicap underprivileged Americans. Give them a leg up on education, training, tax breaks, etc. before we even begin to think of how we can benefit foreigners.

He's saying we should have a preference for existing Americans before we handicap foreigners.

Yes, I'm saying that it doesn't accomplish the stated goal. Restrictive immigration policy is worse than a more welcoming policy when you consider the impact on all existing Americans. Immigration is the better policy for Americans, it's just that the benefit is spread out across more people than the downside, so it is easy to think otherwise.

As far as retraining and such, we should seek to design such things so that they are highly available and are beneficial to the United States as a whole regardless of whether you train an immigrant or a first, second, third, or fourth (or fifth or sixth or seventh) generation American.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#266

Post by msabalau » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

ygaf wrote: post #217

msabalau wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasi…

I'll admit to learning from your definition of nation just now. Sucks that I went well into adulthood never learning the proper meaning of a basic word. On the bright side, google has just given me the green light to continue using 'country' and state interchangeably. Americans sloppily mishandle a lot of things. That's a common culture right off the bat ;) in addition to everything devmunchies said.

To be fair to all of us Americans, nationality, even when when you understand what the term means, is still a sloppy concept, with porous boundaries inviting people to contest any particular usage. And that's putting aside aside any (perfectly appropriate) metaphorical usage i.e. "nation of immigrants".

Anyway, hope that you find the definition useful going forward.. For example, the title "Birth of Nation" is clearer, even if the substance of the movie remains evil nonsense.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#267

Post by johncolanduoni » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #194

johncolanduoni wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the market rate of a translator for an uncommon language in Alabama? Where are you getting your data that suggests $100k is not dramatically above market rates for any job where there is a lack of domestic talent and a surplus of foreign talent? Median personal income in the US is $30k, so I don't think it's fair to assume every job is like tech and has market rates in anywhere near the same place.

Are there people in the US who know the language and are not willing to move to Alabama for 95k? Then the market has spoken. The entire point of capitalism is not everyone get's what they want and price how that is decided.

Okay, that's fine as long as they are available and willing to move for something like $100,000. Doesn't have to be super close; requiring $100,000 to hire a foreign citizen when the market wage is $75,000 seems pretty reasonable to me.

But you don't appear to have data to back up that particular number for all jobs with no specialization whatsoever, and as far as I can tell the administration doesn't either.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#268

Post by sharemywin » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #156

sharemywin wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds like each job class needs it's own minimum.

Which is what the current rule - the one based on prevailing wages - tries to address. Minor tweaks to it - for e.g. using the mean of the top 1/3rd of the salaries surveyed - will accomplish what you ask for, IMO.

wonder if that shouldn't be by city since salaries very so much by geography.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#269

Post by dragandj » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #223

NhanH wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the GP, and I do not agree with the statement. However, I have seen it being made numerous times: any shortage of US workers just means the companies are not paying enough (their argument being, try to pay $1mil and you will certainly fill your positions, this is just very minor exaggeration)

I see the thought process, but it's not universally true since you have to account for value the employee brings as well. Consider a company with only 1 employee. That employee can create 1 widget per year which sells for $100,000. The market for widgets is very elastic and at price points above $100,000, the demand is zero. Overhead and cost of goods is $50,000. In that case, the person's salary can't exceed $50,000…

That implies that the society does not put much value in that product. Maybe there is an alternative that is better, who knows...

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#270

Post by Gargoyle » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:24 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #147

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

>To date, as we all know, the H-1b system has primarily been used to arbitrage for lower wage by Indian companies This isn't really true, or it is, but only in high profile yet minority cases. H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that. So now your IT department is 12 people instead o…

>H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that.

If the native workers won't stand for it, the wages for it aren't actually "near competitive".