Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 451 posts

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#231

Post by googletazer »

cortuso wrote: post #50
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college,…

>I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money.

Sounds like the effect is exactly whats intended then

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#232

Post by Retric »

refurb wrote: post #223
NhanH wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the GP, and I do not agree with the statement. However, I have seen it being made numerous times: any shortage of US workers just means the companies are not paying enough (their argument being, try to pay $1mil and you will certainly fill your positions, this is just very minor exaggeration)

I see the thought process, but it's not universally true since you have to account for value the employee brings as well. Consider a company with only 1 employee. That employee can create 1 widget per year which sells for $100,000. The market for widgets is very elastic and at price points above $100,000, the demand is zero. Overhead and cost of goods is $50,000. In that case, the person's salary can't exceed $50,000…

Suppose you could higher a doctor and at the end of the year get 50k in value. Is that still a viable business? Why or why not?

IMO, that's the crux of the issue. Yes, the clearing price for some jobs mean people are expensive; making some business nonviable. But, that does not inherently mean there is a shortage.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#233

Post by Roboprog »

AnAnonyCowherd wrote: post #98
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Where I work, they're filling roles of what would have been called an engineering clerk, back in the old days. Jobs for which a BS is an over-qualification. The visa holders are vastly underpaid for their education level, while people who would be a better fit can't get their foot in the door, and get a huge boost to their income, because they don't have a degree. I think the "as we all know" is that big corporations…

That's exactly it: indentured servants. I wonder if Canada's immigration policy that Microsoft is holding up is geared toward indentured servanthood, or citizenship?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#234

Post by pm90 »

unprepare wrote: post #228
pm90 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though. > Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies.…

>especially a great starting salary. This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks. Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech compani…

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#235

Post by mc32 »

devmunchies wrote: post #104
jacquesm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

In addition with looming automation, we simply cannot employ all the people who want to come here for a job, either skilled or unskilled.

We have large swaths of underemployed Americans but it costs companies too much to recondition them, so they prefer new bodies over training the domestic workforce.

This should be an opportunity for the likes of YC to double down on extending their know how to American women, American minorities and other underprivileged Americans, but instead they bemoan how a few foreigners are affected all the while ignoring how those same countries might treat not only foreigners, but their own minorities.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#237

Post by coredog64 »

refurb wrote: post #175
jacquesm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my…

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but do you have a Western passport? If so, that buys you a lot of goodwill when it comes to entering a country. People with passports from developing countries often have a hell of a time getting into the US, even with a visa.

This. I worked with people from PNG, Fiji, and the Solomons and they had some stories. While I could transit through Australia with my US passport, they would have to take some circuitous route. One co-worker had his visa approved and then revoked because they decided he needed to prove he didn't have TB.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#238

Post by Roboprog »

cortuso wrote: post #73
cpursley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money Are you suggesting that a $130k floor for H1B workers would undermine the practice of undercutting local workers?

It's hard to predict what will really happen. Some businesses will hire more IT personal overseas, to amortize the costs and avoid H1B application at all. Some will start really searching for a local talent with higher price (that's what this idea is meant to do I guess). But considering that IT reports constantly shortage on candidates, a big gap indeed, regardless top notch universities, makes me think it's not abo…

Possibly they might look at hiring outside of the Bay Area in such exotic locations as Boise, DesMoines, Minneapolis, Detroit or other places where they have recent college graduates who would have been motivated to study STEM fields.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#239

Post by peterchon »

pinaceae wrote: post #166
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners…

Why can't you hire remote employees? is it imperative that the employee be present?

Considering that SF is the most expensive place to live, why would anyone want to move there? especially if you have family?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#240

Post by mc32 »

maxerickson wrote: post #208
devmunchies wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works. There will be specific Americans who benefit less than specific immigrants, but the net effect of immigration has pretty much always been a benefit to the economy. Why should we put the interests of specific Americans ahead of the interests of Americans overall?

He's saying we should have a preference for existing Americans before we handicap foreigners.

But with re Americans over other Americans, yes, it makes sense to handicap underprivileged Americans. Give them a leg up on education, training, tax breaks, etc. before we even begin to think of how we can benefit foreigners.

Post reply on HN