How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#241

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

peterchon wrote: post #239

pinaceae wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners…

Why can't you hire remote employees? is it imperative that the employee be present? Considering that SF is the most expensive place to live, why would anyone want to move there? especially if you have family?

> Considering that SF is the most expensive place to live, why would anyone want to move there?

SF is the most expensive place to live because people want to move there.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#242

Post by davidw » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Picking magic numbers is the antithesis of a free market approach for a free country. Make sure people aren't criminals, and tie certain visa types to being mostly self-supporting, but people don't come to the US for the vast social welfare programs. They come for the opportunities and to work.

http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#243

Post by untog » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

googletazer wrote: post #229

untog wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously we can't know what the organisation doing the hiring is like in this fictional scenario, but $100k would be a huge, huge amount for non-senior staff in rural Alabama no matter what. The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else.

Then they can't afford to run. I'd also love to bring say professional 3D modellers and animators from Eastern Europe or Brazil and pay then 20k CAD/year, but thats not how reality works. All of these programs (hb1/etc...) are basically wage arbitrage schemes and have little to do with presence/absence of talent.

There is no universal H1B salary. Translators do not earn as much as developers, in general. People living in Alabama do not earn as much as those working in Silicon Valley, in general. H1B applications go through a "labor condition application" for this exact reason - the government approves the salary, based on industry and location. Therefore, you can't bring 3D developers to Silicon Valley and pay them $20k. But you might be able to bring a translator to rural Alabama.

If the aim of the H1B program was to bring in the highest possible paid workers, you'd be correct. But it isn't. These programs are designed in such a way that all states can benefit from them, and a variety of professions.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#244

Post by ygaf » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:01 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #210

ygaf wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how it qualifies as hypocrisy to take an opportunity (e.g. get into a country), then shut other people out. If you found a pile of money in the street, is it hypocrisy to shut other people out?

Well your analogy is not a good one :). The contract offered by America to Immigrants is not: come here and get this pile of money! Its always been: come here and you get an opportunity to work hard and possibly make a pile of money.

The money was my analogy to that opportunity. Admittedly it's ambiguous.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#245

Post by vthallam » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:01 PM UTC

macd wrote: post #79

gizmodo59 wrote: post #47

Things that a student coming to US faces from a developing or under-developed country: 1. Undergo TOEFL and GRE and apply to various universities 2. Save up enough money or even mortgage parents property to pay for tuition and even buy flight tickets 3. Adapt to a new culture, study hard while working part time 4. Finding a job (While its definitely easy for a CS graduate its not the same for other majors) but yet, c…

> study hard while working part time F-1 visa students are not allowed to work at all, except in a part-time position at their current school.

Yes,that's what the parent have been referring to. I worked in the school as a TA and that's still plenty to manage which doing course work.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#246

Post by unprepare » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #234

unprepare wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>especially a great starting salary. This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks. Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech compani…

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. An…

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#247

Post by yokisan » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

throwaway729 wrote: post #174

testUser69 wrote: post #88

Americas "tech dominance" threatens the breadbasket. The coastal areas, mostly certain cities, have become "international" and any worker from a rural area who wants to earn a living wage doing a technical job (e.g. STEM) now not only has to compete with other Americans, but everyone in the world. What exactly do the elites expect people in the breadbasket to do? If America is an international country then we're goin…

This "rural communities don't need tech" narrative is tiring and false. "Tech" is more than Google. How many engineers do you think John Deere hires? How many scientists does Monsanto have on staff? How many lines of code go into the average modern factory? If I had a dime for every time I talk to a farmer/laborer who plants fields full of GM crops and/or harvests those fields with impressive machinery, and then insi…

> There's nothing stopping those people from getting an education and joining a big tech company.

"There's nothing stopping somebody from the ghetto from getting an education and joining a big tech company".

In both cases, sadly there is. And I think what the OP is suggesting ("for every immigrant a tech company imports, they must hire two rural American workers") is a step towards remedying this.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#248

Post by bannedtruth » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

justinlaster wrote: post #230

nanistheonlyist wrote: post #199

Yes, Immigration from high IQ euro countries.

So all the tech companies that have been founded from largely middle-east country immigrant families is just going to be ignored? I know, recognizing contradicting evidence to narratives you hold dearly might be hard, but do try.

It is insane to ban someone for speaking the truth.

The comments I read in hacker news (I didn't know only democrats where allowed to post) are just delusional.

Saying that it is fair competition, that USA is not a nation... what the hell. China and India have BILLIONS of people... even if only the 0.01% get it to the US they are bound to be the best. Local competition is impossible. Add to that the lower wages and you have locals out of the market. No wonder San Francisco and San Jose are how they are. No wonder the giant corporations who lower your f---- wages are getting everything.

If it becomes a demographic competition then China and India are bound to get everything just by their sheer numbers.

Come on people...at least be honest and admit what it is.

Am I the only one who knows about the fake universities set up in San Jose to get "students" from India? Students that immediately start working for some company in the area and course no subjects at such University.

Am I the only one who knows about Snowden? About the lowering demographics of certain group of people both in US and EU?

At least call it for what it is instead of repeating the bullshit and banning people from commenting.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#249

Post by lineindc » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #209

lineindc wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works. Found the fascist nazi bigot. /s

Found the insulting novelty account. Please do not do this. Thank you.

It was sarcasm, as the /s indicates. If you didn't like the joke downvote and move on.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#250

Post by mi100hael » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #200

mi100hael wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've worked with many people on H1Bs and student visas. Every single one of them was a valuable person to work with, and they should be citizens. In what industry do you work? As a software engineer, I've worked with a lot of people on H-1Bs. They are normal, nice people like anyone else I'd have no problem with them becoming citizens given the proper process, but I wouldn't say they brought more value than any Ame…

I didn't say they are more valuable, I said they are valuable, and that they are American programmers and the law should be corrected to reflect that.

But that's not what H-1B visas are for. They are intended to allow companies to hire for specialized skills that they can't find domestically. The are also objectively not Americans.