Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 451 posts

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#181

Post by ma2rten »

anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

You didn't provide any hard numbers. As far as I know the tech industry is an important contributor to the American economy and if they decide or are forced to move those jobs to another country it would hurt America more than it would them.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#182

Post by testUser69 »

ihsw wrote: post #143
testUser69 wrote: post #88

Americas "tech dominance" threatens the breadbasket. The coastal areas, mostly certain cities, have become "international" and any worker from a rural area who wants to earn a living wage doing a technical job (e.g. STEM) now not only has to compete with other Americans, but everyone in the world. What exactly do the elites expect people in the breadbasket to do? If America is an international country then we're goin…

Wealth has gravitated around massive city centers since time immemorial and China is even more hostile to foreigners. If you think America is the only one artificially gating wealth within the border then you are in for a rude awakening. Coastal cities in America will continue to be a melting pot of culture but the wealth won't be siphoned off unabated. The rationale behind the policy is ending the indentured servitu…

>Wealth has gravitated around massive city centers since time immemorial

Well yeah, but there were times when wealth was more evenly distributed within America.

When we first started taking in immigrants (when America was founded), we were in a state of high-economic entropy, meaning that there were so many jobs and things to do (and no minimum wage) that we NEEDED to import people from around the world.

Times have changed and the world is changing faster and faster. America is now in a state of low economic entropy, and having a free-for-all international jobs market is not helping that situation.

Is the goal to move the entire world into a state of low economic entropy? We can have big wealthy countries running the world like we're use to, or we can have big wealthy cities running the world like we're aiming toward.

I think concentrating wealth in these big tech centers makes it harder for people in the US to work their way out of poverty. It will be great for the people in Africa living on two dollars a day when their wages go up to 15 dollars a day, but it's going to be hell for people in the US who are use to 50-100 dollars a day going down to $15.

Everyone will be equal though (well, all the poor will be equally poor, and all the rich will be equally rich).

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#183

Post by norea-armozel »

throwaway729 wrote: post #174
testUser69 wrote: post #88

Americas "tech dominance" threatens the breadbasket. The coastal areas, mostly certain cities, have become "international" and any worker from a rural area who wants to earn a living wage doing a technical job (e.g. STEM) now not only has to compete with other Americans, but everyone in the world. What exactly do the elites expect people in the breadbasket to do? If America is an international country then we're goin…

This "rural communities don't need tech" narrative is tiring and false. "Tech" is more than Google. How many engineers do you think John Deere hires? How many scientists does Monsanto have on staff? How many lines of code go into the average modern factory? If I had a dime for every time I talk to a farmer/laborer who plants fields full of GM crops and/or harvests those fields with impressive machinery, and then insi…

As a former Kansan, I have to agree. We need more technology investment in the Great Plains and sooner rather than later. I can't see how anyone assumes there's no need for it out there.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#184

Post by ygaf »

jacquesm wrote: post #91
anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

I've never understood how it qualifies as hypocrisy to take an opportunity (e.g. get into a country), then shut other people out. If you found a pile of money in the street, is it hypocrisy to shut other people out?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#185

Post by devmunchies »

msabalau wrote: post #151
devmunchies wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing Yeah ok, buddy. Try that line when you don't wanna pay taxes.

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasi…

America absolutely has a culture. Have you never lived in another country?

Our houses, cars, schools, music, food, pass times, athletics, language (slang, dialects), entertainment, government, habits, communication (verbal, body language), aspirations, societal expectations, humor, things we find offensive/inoffensive, etc.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#186

Post by mywittyname »

jacquesm wrote: post #168
mywittyname wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically America absolutely needed immigration. Early America lacked a lot of skilled laborers. England was opposed to allowing skilled workers to emigrate to the US for fear of the US competing with England. The preferred the US to provide them with cheap agricultural goods in exchange for high-priced steel, tools, and weapons. It wasn't until the mid 1800s that the US began work on the first steel mill because…

Early America was full of Native Americans and they didn't need those immigrants at all. The people that needed the skilled laborers were immigrants themselves. By the way, the very best way to stop immigration is to make other countries wealthy.

You're being intentionally obtuse. Sure, the Native Americans would have gotten along fine with bows and horses. But we are discussing the economy.

The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#187

Post by pm90 »

rdtsc wrote: post #163
cortuso wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college,…

> I would get one from local market for that amount of money. Wait, why? Are you implying foreign workers are not competent and can't be exceptional? Surely it isn't that? Otherwise, sounds like then H1B will finally work as intended, you'd be able higher exceptional people from overseas who might not be available in your area? Maybe there is a distributed systems expert from Argentina or a compiler writer from Ghana…

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though.

> Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more

Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies. And not just to the bay area where such salaries are common.

> So if they do such good work we should reward them appropriately by paying them a competitive salary. H1B should not be a way to bring in cheap labor.

60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country! Please consider that outside of major cities, it is a pretty decent salary, especially a great starting salary.

> That is completely bogus. There is a strong notion of a nation here precisely because there is ethnic, religious or other history. If anything Americans are criticized for over-emphasizing their "Americanism".

I think the OP mean more along the line of patrimony and culture that is common in the Old World. While Americans might beat their chest and proclaim their uniqueness, they have existed as nation for just over 300 years, while the culture of Europe and much of Asia goes back thousands of years.

> Well if this is a dream surely we don't want ruin that dream for those who are here and suppress their wages.

Precisely. So don't.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#188

Post by gnopgnip »

secfirstmd wrote: post #115
542458 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!

Yeah, or what about those of us in the NGO and non-profit sector who need people with specific regional skills/knowledge/experience and/or folks (including tech people) who prefer to take a slightly lower salary because they want to work with us on important stuff? We've had to sort visas on a number of occasions for people. $100,000 would be like one of the highest ever non-profit salaries!

The salary floor is when the business does not have to prove they did not first search for openings in the US. If you want to hire someone with extremely specialized skills for under 60k(or $130k as proposed by the new bill) a year you have to at least try to recruit in the US first.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#189

Post by geebee »

pinaceae wrote: post #166
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners…

Can we agree that the US citizens who are capable of becoming programmers are making a rational economic decision to do something else?

If so, why hasnt tech competed successfully for them? I think open offices, poor autonomy, career issues as you cross 40, and so forth, have played a big role here. Even salaries arent remarkable compared to what skilled and intelligent people can earn in other fields. I think that if tech is having trouble hiring, they should learn to compete.

I see no reason to create a program that allows tech companies to force an immigrant to study CS and work a a dev as a condition of living and working in the US.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#190

Post by [deleted] »

pinaceae wrote: post #166
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN