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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

bbc.com

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#251

Post by youngtaff »

sangnoir wrote: post #182
planetjones wrote: post #7

I think Britain will eventually come out of this stronger. However, it's clear in the interim period (which could be 5-10 years I think) there could be huge transitional issues. Whether that pain is worth suffering, only time will tell. Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The WTO exists for trade and I would much prefer it to be the vehicle for trade, rather than groups of g…

> Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe. That's a good enough pro to cancel out all the other cons on my list. But hey, it's been three generations since our last big war, we are probably overdue on a reminder of why fully-industrialized total war is not such a great idea.

Are you sure about that?

Have we had no wars in Europe since WW2 because of the EU, or because the generations before us were sick of war?

Also the EU didn't stop a war in the Balkans…

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#252

Post by pvdebbe »

gonvaled wrote: post #194
pvdebbe wrote: post #74

Shame if this happens (Amazon.co.uk has been good; Amazon.de doesn't speak English), but UK must do what they think what's good for them. Doing customs declarations in Finland has turned into a hassle since the convenience of EU trade.

why do you need to do customs declarations in Finland? Where are you based? Where are you buying from? Buying from any other EU country should free you from customs declarations.

Mainly because I'm a sucker for Amazon, and the other Amazon warehouses in EU area didn't support English to my knowledge. I'm glad if they do.

There's also been the possibility to hack with GBP/EUR rates.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#253

Post by dragonwriter »

raesene6 wrote: post #198
dragonwriter wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election It's potentially a clearer mandate on, at most, exactly the question asked in the referendum, but it's not a mandate for any particular method of implementing it nor is it a mandate for any party's or leader's judgement in pursuing it, nor is it even a mandate for any choice on balancing that one priority against others.

but the implementation of "control the borders" (a key brexit tenet) requires leaving the single market, the EU has made it crystal clear that you can't remove the right to freedom of movement whilst remaining in the union. EDIT : in case anyone wants to argue that immigration wasn't a key part of the leave campaign... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/eu-referend... a key pledge related to immigration…

> a key brexit tenet

A majority of a majority is not necessarily itself a majority, which is why a referendum -- especially one narrowly approved -- provides no mandate beyond the question asked, including on "key tenets" of the campaign for the position that wins that are, themselves, not included in the question asked.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#254

Post by gonvaled »

up_so_floating wrote: post #238
gonvaled wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. We have entered the "Era of the Bully": don't ask permission, not even forgiveness. Whatever you can do, just do it. Don't care who you hurt. The only principle guiding you should be "to maximize your own benefit", assuming that the other players are doing the same. In the EU, we had left this behind long ago, compromising between us in order to get some minimal standards for granted. This will work very well…

Have we really ever left the "Era of the Bully"? Do you think China or Russia care about "hurting" others through their actions? You will be competing with them. Can you punish them as effectively as you can "punish" Britain?

> Have we really ever left the "Era of the Bully"?

We had left it. In the EU.

> Do you think China or Russia care about "hurting" others through their actions? You will be competing with them

We are competing with China and Russia. To do that we need to be strong. That's one of the reasons why EU membership is important. Thanks for pointing that out.

> Can you punish them as effectively as you can "punish" Britain?

We are not punishing Britain. Britain is leaving the EU. Any deal we get is a new deal. Nothing can be taken for granted, by the EU or by the UK. If the UK does not get access to the EU market, it is because it is

a) either not in the interest of the UK to accept compromises offered by the EU

b) or not in the interest of the EU to accept what the UK is proposing

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#255

Post by gpderetta »

Gupie wrote: post #232
xemoka wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but article 50 doesn't work like that, does it?

In what way? Article 50 can be revoked once triggered: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-article...

"[...] probably unilaterally by the UK. However, in the latter case the UK would find itself having to defend a very uncertain legal and very troubling position.” senior academic claims (emphasis and ellipses mine).

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#256

Post by youngtaff »

gonvaled wrote: post #162

It is unfortunate that the spotlight is in the UK, and that the EU is not able to bring across the benefits and compromises that membership has and implies. I fear that this failure of communicating clearly to EU citizens (and the rest) what the EU project is, what benefits it has, why we need to compromise in certain areas, is having a strong negative impact in how it is perceived, and can bring about its own demise…

The UK is so selfish that it's the second largest net contributor to the EU budget!

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#257

Post by portref »

digi_owl wrote: post #221
emptyfile wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself. As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.

Thing is, and it took me all too long to learn this, Schengen is not what enables foreign workers to enter another EU member nation. It just makes it easier. The Brexit yes came overwhelmingly form the old industrial areas of UK. From the towns and such that has seen their quality of life stagnate or deteriorate while the jobs gets done by foreigners that come by the busload. Damn it, i don't live in UK but i have se…

Can't just blame post-industrial areas, SE England voted to leave too.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#258

Post by dragonwriter »

xemoka wrote: post #220
Gupie wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a second referendum on what is finally agreed with the EU. The people are allowed to change their mind.

Yeah, but article 50 doesn't work like that, does it?

The agreement with the EU could be made contingent on a referendum by its express terms, I suppose; with a fallback term in the agreement of a further negotiation period without leaving the EU. But that seems unlikely.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#259

Post by rusk »

raesene6 wrote: post #157
lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election (especially using a First Past the Post system) as it's more focused on a single topic and is (partially) free of the baggage of party alliegance. Given the percentage of the electorate who supported the current government at the last general election, it doesn't seem likely that you'd get a clearer mandate from a new one. It seems to me that Mrs May d…

I have voted in a great many referendums here in Ireland. They typically arise when a constitutional amendment is required, and the language in them is pretty clear and unequivocal.

You are presented with the actual literal constitutional changes and whether they are acceptable or not. Usually (but far less so than I would like) there is a public debate about the pros and cons of the proposed changes. The discussion isn't merely polarised, sometimes you will have people who agree with the general principle of the change, but object in terms of the actual proposed amendment. Perhaps on the grounds that it doesn't go far enough. Perhaps on the grounds that the specific wording leaves open other dangerous consequences.

As far as I understand it, the Brexit poll presented voters with the options "Remain" and "Leave". There wasn't any definitive statement on what "Leave" means. Of course it literally means "Hard Brexit" but I don't believe this is what most people had in mind, nor were they adequately briefed on the consequences.

The connection to Article 50 of the EU constitution as a means to "Leave" seems to have been made post hoc.

If you dispute that most British people made this decision knowingly I urge you to read Dominic Cummings' gleeful account of how he believes he captured and manipulated the Brexit vote [0] (it's a fascinating read by the way, and I do have a huge amount of respect for the guy, though his underlying motives seem somewhat veiled).

I agree it seems unlikely at this stage a second referendum would yield a different result. We are definitely in one of these "it's going to get worse before it gets better" situations.

However, you do have an unelected government interpreting the meaning of "Leave" and presenting a vision of what post-Brexit Britain should look like, and that in particular is what's worrying.

[0] https://dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2016/10/29/on-the-refe...

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#260

Post by gonvaled »

youngtaff wrote: post #256
gonvaled wrote: post #162

It is unfortunate that the spotlight is in the UK, and that the EU is not able to bring across the benefits and compromises that membership has and implies. I fear that this failure of communicating clearly to EU citizens (and the rest) what the EU project is, what benefits it has, why we need to compromise in certain areas, is having a strong negative impact in how it is perceived, and can bring about its own demise…

The UK is so selfish that it's the second largest net contributor to the EU budget!

Adjusted per GDP?

You are the sixth (seventh?) economy of the world, you are expected to pay more. Did you expect Austria to contribute more than the UK? The EU has some associated costs, which need to be paid, and there is budget for investing in depressed areas (many in the UK).

But don't worry, you will get 30 different trade deals which do not cost any penny in supervising or enforcing, because that just happens automagically: you sign in the bottom of a paper, and all written rules are respected, enforced, supervised and updated. Isn't that sweet?

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