Theresa May: UK must leave European single market • Hacker News Board

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#191

Post by gonvaled » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

sparshgupta wrote: post #173

> Maintaining the common travel area between the UK and Irish Republic Tariff-free trade with the EU A customs agreement with the EU Continued "practical" sharing of intelligence and policing information "Control" of immigration rights for EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU Correct me if I am wrong but aren't these the things they get by being members of the EU? That is why they paid fees to have all thi…

The UK is simply trying to divide the EU, by cosying up to some members.

Of course the UK has control of borders: they are not even in Shengen! Besides, only EU citizens are allowed to move around the EU.

It is unfortunate that the EU has allowed the UK to amass that much financial and intelligence clout, and something that I hope will be corrected in the near future, by distributing the financial center around the EU member states, and by building up a world class intelligence service.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#192

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

raesene6 wrote: post #157

lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election (especially using a First Past the Post system) as it's more focused on a single topic and is (partially) free of the baggage of party alliegance. Given the percentage of the electorate who supported the current government at the last general election, it doesn't seem likely that you'd get a clearer mandate from a new one. It seems to me that Mrs May d…

> To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election

It's potentially a clearer mandate on, at most, exactly the question asked in the referendum, but it's not a mandate for any particular method of implementing it nor is it a mandate for any party's or leader's judgement in pursuing it, nor is it even a mandate for any choice on balancing that one priority against others.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#193

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

gpderetta wrote: post #185

raesene6 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election (especially using a First Past the Post system) as it's more focused on a single topic and is (partially) free of the baggage of party alliegance. Given the percentage of the electorate who supported the current government at the last general election, it doesn't seem likely that you'd get a clearer mandate from a new one. It seems to me that Mrs May d…

clear mandate to what exactly? Hard brexit? Why would you assume that would be the preferred outcome of a majority of the population?

Clear mandate to achieve the aims campaigned on. A large part of the the brexit campaign revolved around control of immigration.

Now control of immigration predicates leaving the single market as one of the principles of that is freedom of movement, so there's literally no way to achieve the stated brexit campaign goals without leaving the single market.

I didn't say anything about the majority of the population I said people who voted in favour of the referendum. The reality of our electoral system is that you just need the majority of voters, not population (well unless you're scotland in the 70's that is)

EDIT : in case anyone wants to argue that immigration wasn't a key part of the leave campaign... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/eu-referend... a key pledge related to immigration directly and another was closely associated

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#194

Post by gonvaled » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

pvdebbe wrote: post #74

Shame if this happens (Amazon.co.uk has been good; Amazon.de doesn't speak English), but UK must do what they think what's good for them. Doing customs declarations in Finland has turned into a hassle since the convenience of EU trade.

why do you need to do customs declarations in Finland? Where are you based? Where are you buying from?

Buying from any other EU country should free you from customs declarations.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#195

Post by Lio » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

thenomad wrote: post #79

lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

I couldn't agree more, and I wonder why you're being downvoted so hard. Particularly given that 52% of the voters voted for Leave, not for a hard Brexit. Those are two very different propositions and a significant chunk of the 52% didn't want a hard Brexit.

Whilst I sympathise with the sentiment of parent, I believe the downvotes are for failing to understand how mandate works in our parliamentary democracy.

We, the voting public in the UK, never vote directly elect our government. We give a mandate to our local MP and then they decide who forms the government.

Further, we vote for our local MP knowing ahead of time that they could change who they decide will form the government at anytime before the next general election.

Even if we don't like the current government, they do have a democratic mandate.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#196

Post by whositis » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #99

whositis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. And that's precisely why it is failing, and will continue to fail. Imagine combining Canada and the USA into a single country.

The EU is not "a single country", obviously. I have no trouble imagining a close EU-like relationship between the US and Canada; until recently, you didn't even need a passport to travel between the two. They're very similar countries which could work together on almost everything.

> The EU is not "a single country"

That's certainly the endgame. What couldn't be achieved by world wars, is being achieved by the EU project.

> US and Canada... very similar countries

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic here. And if not, don't you think it's pretty disgusting to suggest the culture of Canadians and Americans is pretty similar? Don't you think that culture is something to cherish and protect, rather than pretend doesn't exist?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#197

Post by gpderetta » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

raesene6 wrote: post #169

thenomad wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't agree more, and I wonder why you're being downvoted so hard. Particularly given that 52% of the voters voted for Leave, not for a hard Brexit. Those are two very different propositions and a significant chunk of the 52% didn't want a hard Brexit.

I would suggest that a large percentage of that 52% voted based on "control the borders" rhetoric. That (AFAIK) cannot be delivered while remaining in the single market, so the UK government is taking the only possible path to satisfy that requirement which was voted for by the UK population in a referendum... Now I'd agree that if you actually spelled out the reality of "hard brexit" people might be given pause and…

> I would suggest that a large percentage of that 52% voted based on "control the borders" rhetoric.

are you suggesting that (as long as that percentage is less than 95%) the majority of total voters were against 'border control?'

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#198

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #192

raesene6 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election (especially using a First Past the Post system) as it's more focused on a single topic and is (partially) free of the baggage of party alliegance. Given the percentage of the electorate who supported the current government at the last general election, it doesn't seem likely that you'd get a clearer mandate from a new one. It seems to me that Mrs May d…

> To me a referendum is a clearer mandate than any general election It's potentially a clearer mandate on, at most, exactly the question asked in the referendum, but it's not a mandate for any particular method of implementing it nor is it a mandate for any party's or leader's judgement in pursuing it, nor is it even a mandate for any choice on balancing that one priority against others.

but the implementation of "control the borders" (a key brexit tenet) requires leaving the single market, the EU has made it crystal clear that you can't remove the right to freedom of movement whilst remaining in the union.

EDIT : in case anyone wants to argue that immigration wasn't a key part of the leave campaign... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/eu-referend... a key pledge related to immigration directly and another was closely associated

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#199

Post by virmundi » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #88

paskster wrote: post #71

Europe is not a single market at all. Simple thinks like making sure your invoice is paid from a customer who is based in another european country is practically impossible. I know because I am the CEO of a staffing company in Germany: national as well as international businesses book exhibition staff and other temporary employees for events in Germany and Austria through our platform. If one of our german customers…

> Europe is not a single market at all. Oh, it’s already a lot better than it was before. But you are right, a fuckton of work is required to make it even slightly competitive with the US, China, or India. But we should work towards that – and not split it up even further.

Isn't one of the issues with the EU government that it's recalcitrant to reform? Brussels feels like they have a cozy little cocoon. Any attempts to make them work for the people in a meaningful way get rebuffed.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#200

Post by emptyfile » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

harryf wrote: post #38

emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself.

As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.