Theresa May: UK must leave European single market • Hacker News Board

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#231

Post by rusk » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:57 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #91

BjoernKW wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice words and I agree with the message. The implementation however is often still deeply flawed. Quite often it's nothing but some aloof bureaucrat's plan (or shall I say pipe dream?). A prime example of this is VAT regulations in the EU, which supposedly have been harmonised and simplified some time ago yet with every iteration, with every 'simplification' they just got worse, less harmonious and more unwieldy to h…

"Ideas are cheap, execution is what matters" is a standard startup advice. I think it is even more relevant to politics and in terms of execution the EU did not do too well. My 2c.

I don't think it relates purely to the EU, but to politics in general. I'm all too often hearing quick-fix solutions mouthed by politicians when what's plain to the eye is a profoundly unsexy root-and-branch analysis is necessary.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#232

Post by Gupie » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:58 PM UTC

xemoka wrote: post #220

Gupie wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a second referendum on what is finally agreed with the EU. The people are allowed to change their mind.

Yeah, but article 50 doesn't work like that, does it?

In what way? Article 50 can be revoked once triggered:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-article...

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#233

Post by MichaelGG » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #162

It is unfortunate that the spotlight is in the UK, and that the EU is not able to bring across the benefits and compromises that membership has and implies. I fear that this failure of communicating clearly to EU citizens (and the rest) what the EU project is, what benefits it has, why we need to compromise in certain areas, is having a strong negative impact in how it is perceived, and can bring about its own demise…

No one can stab another country in the back by being a tax haven. If a country allows companies to use tax havens, it's up to that county to adjust its laws.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#234

Post by dx034 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #71

Europe is not a single market at all. Simple thinks like making sure your invoice is paid from a customer who is based in another european country is practically impossible. I know because I am the CEO of a staffing company in Germany: national as well as international businesses book exhibition staff and other temporary employees for events in Germany and Austria through our platform. If one of our german customers…

But this is mainly a language issue. If you had a common language, you'd probably have it easy to sue people in other countries as well. And you can sue as a non-Italian without any problems.

The EU will never have the level of integration the US has, simply because there are different languages at play. But that's no fault of EU politicians.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#235

Post by dx034 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

virmundi wrote: post #199

kuschku wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe is not a single market at all. Oh, it’s already a lot better than it was before. But you are right, a fuckton of work is required to make it even slightly competitive with the US, China, or India. But we should work towards that – and not split it up even further.

Isn't one of the issues with the EU government that it's recalcitrant to reform? Brussels feels like they have a cozy little cocoon. Any attempts to make them work for the people in a meaningful way get rebuffed.

They actually work a lot for the people. The reason the EU is often unpopular with businesses is due to laws protecting people (labor laws, customer protection, minimum standards, ...). I'd argue that is politic for the people, just not for businesses.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#236

Post by emptyfile » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:02 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #221

emptyfile wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself. As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.

Thing is, and it took me all too long to learn this, Schengen is not what enables foreign workers to enter another EU member nation. It just makes it easier. The Brexit yes came overwhelmingly form the old industrial areas of UK. From the towns and such that has seen their quality of life stagnate or deteriorate while the jobs gets done by foreigners that come by the busload. Damn it, i don't live in UK but i have se…

All EU's fault obviously.

Minimum wage, union nagotiated wages, restricting benefits for non working immigrants, IDs to combat illegal immigration, unused emergency brakes for immigration, none of that matters it's the damn EU's fault and most definitely not the UK government.

I promised myself I will only post one comment and not get dragged into any discussions so I this is my last one.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#237

Post by laingc » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

emptyfile wrote: post #200

harryf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself. As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.

And I'm not the only resident of Germany who wishes that we would follow Britain's example.

I likely have a biased sample, but amongst my colleagues and friends, I don't know anyone who wants further European integration, and most want out completely.

Anecdata cuts both ways.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#238

Post by up_so_floating » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #178

cJ0th wrote: post #28

The UK (and soon the US) are shaking the world up. The winners of this shake up will be those who are, both, able to drop old assumptions quickly and enjoying a good deal of luck. It's a bit like organizing the world by chance while hoping for the best.

Agree. We have entered the "Era of the Bully": don't ask permission, not even forgiveness. Whatever you can do, just do it. Don't care who you hurt. The only principle guiding you should be "to maximize your own benefit", assuming that the other players are doing the same. In the EU, we had left this behind long ago, compromising between us in order to get some minimal standards for granted. This will work very well…

Have we really ever left the "Era of the Bully"?

Do you think China or Russia care about "hurting" others through their actions? You will be competing with them. Can you punish them as effectively as you can "punish" Britain?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#239

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:04 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #217

rayiner wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the EU will either end up with a bunch of very different people unhappy about being forced into the same polity, or it will end. America proves you cannot have Democratic sovereign states tied together by an overarching union. America is a lot more homogenous than Europe and even then it's intensely straining here. Neither Alabama nor Massachusetts are happy being forced into the same polity with each other--voti…

> Massachusetts can't just decide to become a Scandanavian-style welfare state if it can't control the flow of people and commerce across its borders In the EU we have some countries with Scandinavian-style welfare states, and some without it. And still the EU exists, which seems impossible according to your comment.

All of the pre-2000s EU members have robust welfare states. It's an open question whether the EU will continue to exist with all the new members (or whether it would have continued to exist taking on countries like Turkey like it was originally on course to do).

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#240

Post by gonvaled » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #233

gonvaled wrote: post #162

It is unfortunate that the spotlight is in the UK, and that the EU is not able to bring across the benefits and compromises that membership has and implies. I fear that this failure of communicating clearly to EU citizens (and the rest) what the EU project is, what benefits it has, why we need to compromise in certain areas, is having a strong negative impact in how it is perceived, and can bring about its own demise…

No one can stab another country in the back by being a tax haven. If a country allows companies to use tax havens, it's up to that county to adjust its laws.

So you are basically saying: if the tax heaven succeeds, it is the fault of the country allowing the "tax-heaving", not the country offering the tax heaven.

Do you also think that it is the fault of the drug user and not the fault of the drug dealer? Or the fault of the shooted person, and not the fault of the shooter?

Whatever. It does not really matter how you describe it. There is one country "doing the tax-heaving" or the other "allowing it". But mind you: controlling your companies to exploit tax-heavens, specially if they are based in globally relevant economies with presence in lots of international bodies is not easy matter.

That's why the EU must be extremely firm in this area, and not allow the UK-offered tax heaven to flourish at the expense of the EU. Any trading done from tax-heaven Britain with the EU must be forbidden or punished with extremely high custom taxes.

I assume you agree with me that would be part of the "adjust its laws" comment.