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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

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Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#81

Post by enraged_camel »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #73
atmosx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? Indeed. That alone, makes me not want to even take a look at the text and dismiss it right away as negative for the vast amounts of the population.

Imagine building a website for a client, and having them hover around you all the time, 24/7, looking at your screen and going: - Oh, why did you put that button in here? What do you mean "temporary"? - Why are you wasting time browsing that "documentation" site instead of writing code? - What is this "class" thing? We're egalitarian company! - Is this Ruby? Everyone knows websites are best done in PHP! Usually you'd…

Yeah but your client also knows that the features you develop won't actively fuck them over.

Besides, the public didn't find out the TTIP details as it was a "prototype", but more like a "release candidate."

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#82

Post by mickronome »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #73
atmosx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? Indeed. That alone, makes me not want to even take a look at the text and dismiss it right away as negative for the vast amounts of the population.

Imagine building a website for a client, and having them hover around you all the time, 24/7, looking at your screen and going: - Oh, why did you put that button in here? What do you mean "temporary"? - Why are you wasting time browsing that "documentation" site instead of writing code? - What is this "class" thing? We're egalitarian company! - Is this Ruby? Everyone knows websites are best done in PHP! Usually you'd…

But this is not about a basic prototype, as the deal was/is only supposed to be made public in it's final form - and then voted upon.

It's more like the heads of two partially rival companies decide they need to develop a new product, one ostensibly important enough that the companies future depend on it, or the rivals would not have a reason to do it. Enormous resources are poured into the project while stock owners, employees and nost of the board are kept in the dark. After a long time which have much contributed to the sense of urgency being much higher the board and stock owners get to vote.

There will likely be a strong tendency to ratify such a plan no matter the quality, not only because of sunk cost fallacy, but also in the sense of urgency and importance the construction of the process conveys.

No stock owners - or board - in their right minds should ever allow such a project to start, if they had the power to do so.

If producing a prototype is not possible, then if something is important enough to be negotiated for years, the decision to ratify it must be prescribed to take at least as long time as the negotiations themselves took. Otherwise the negotiators clearly are expecting to manipulate the ratification by construction.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#83

Post by Scarblac »

evgen wrote: post #51
erhardm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... Upon the insistence of the US, the documents are not transmitted any more as electronic or even printed documents.[5] They are only made available [to authorised readers] in secure rooms at the European Commission HQ in Brussels, in a number of US embassies,[5] and at the offices of member states' trade ministries.[61] In all these secured rooms phones or other types of scanning device are forbidden.[5] Blank sh…

That would be because your representative is not a negotiator. They get to approve or reject the deal once it is done, but "people" do not get involved in the negotiation because "people" have a lot of parochial interests and are, as history has taught us, quite ignorant. Sorry if this bothers you, but it is how trade deals have always been done and is how they will always be conducted going forward.

But the flip side is surely that the chance that the whole deal is overthrown by the time legislators finally get to see it becomes a lot bigger.

I think they will not be done this way going forward, because these deals took ten years of negotations, and now they fail. It doesn't work anymore.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#84

Post by danieltillett »

yoplait_ wrote: post #75
adimitrov wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the big problem with TTIP: those who negotiated it (on the EU side at least) weren't elected representatives. In fact, elected representatives only very recently received very limited access to the negotiation documents themselves. In Germany, access was granted to members of parliament only January this year. Even so, they weren't even allowed to carry electronic devices or pen-and-paper notebooks. This is wh…

Elected representatives could not negotiate the deal themselves because it is way too technical. So the actual negotiators were given a mandate by the elected representatives. Elected representatives then get to decide whether they will vote for the deal. TTIP is dead because it's become clear the deal will not get approval from all representatives, in part because of public disapproval. In conclusion, TTIP _is_ demo…

If the deal is too technical to negotiate how can the elected representative possibly decide if they should vote for it as they by definition can't understand it?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#85

Post by hiou »

icantdrive55 wrote: post #53
colechristensen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

(It was more about states rights, over federal rights. I don't think they really cared about slavery--unfortunately.)

I should just let this be down voted but there needs to be overwhelming repeated rebuttals to this very misleading framing.

This whole thing tries to use the fact that no southern states voted for Lincoln to frame it like secession was actually just because they felt their voice wasn't being heard. What that ignores is that slavery was the main(almost only) economic driver in the south. The election was about slavery. The north was done with it. The vote was a signal to the wealthy and powerful of the south that the north was going to abolish slavery and there was nothing they could do about it. Sucession was their last attempt to keep the massive amount of money being made via slavery.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#86

Post by acqq »

yoplait_ wrote: post #76
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We wouldn't want to bug those poor negotiators while they whittle away what's left of our democracy

These deals take years to negotiate. It's just a matter of practicality. Democracy can always say no to deals if it wants to (as is happening here).

That the TTIP-like deals take years is not by accident, but by design: the nasty stuff is to be included in one big package and obscured, to be accepted "by the democracy" only because it's a part of the whole "and look, there's some pork there too." Otherwise the smaller deals, which would actually be in the clear interest of both sides would happen much more often.

As the user walterbell posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12569891 :

5-min video on the major trade agreements and ISDS, https://youtube.com/watch?v=M4-mlGRPmkU

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#88

Post by damptowel »

yoplait_ wrote: post #75
adimitrov wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the big problem with TTIP: those who negotiated it (on the EU side at least) weren't elected representatives. In fact, elected representatives only very recently received very limited access to the negotiation documents themselves. In Germany, access was granted to members of parliament only January this year. Even so, they weren't even allowed to carry electronic devices or pen-and-paper notebooks. This is wh…

Elected representatives could not negotiate the deal themselves because it is way too technical. So the actual negotiators were given a mandate by the elected representatives. Elected representatives then get to decide whether they will vote for the deal. TTIP is dead because it's become clear the deal will not get approval from all representatives, in part because of public disapproval. In conclusion, TTIP _is_ demo…

> Elected representatives could not negotiate the deal themselves because it is way too technical.

It really isn't ...

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#89

Post by andrepd »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

Are you saying it's okay to do deals in secret because otherwise you would have to deal with a pesky democratic opposition?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#90

Post by julianj »

bobwaycott wrote: post #68
icantdrive55 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(It was more about states rights, over federal rights. I don't think they really cared about slavery--unfortunately.)

No. Not at all. Not even in the slightest. This states rights bullshit started in the South as a defensive move to toss a more palatable, quasi-theoretical veneer on what was an unmitigated Southern revolt against the United States because of overt distaste at losing federal support and protection for continuing the practice of slavery. This exposed Southern dependence upon it as a basis for its economy and entire wa…

I see what you're saying. I don't disagree that there have been actions taken by states under the guise of state's rights that could be considered horrible. However, the true concept of states rights is more than something randomly invented by southerners. This idea is based on the 10th Amendment of the Constitution.
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