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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

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Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#71

Post by colechristensen »

jeff_petersen wrote: post #62
colechristensen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

The United States didn't abolish slavery until after the civil war as one of the Reconstruction Amendments. In a way, the war triggered abolition (or spurred it to happen more quickly), not the other way around.

You're right, of course, but it's not nearly as easy to say succinctly with a clever quip to make a point. The civil war started because states suceded because Lincoln was elected. They did it because there was a gradual progression of laws being enacted with the goal of eventual extinction of slavery in the US. Lincoln's win guaranteed that this was going to continue past some intolerable point for the South and so, secession.

It's a bit like admonishing the protestors for protesting TTIP before it was enacted. Probably could have chosen slightly more accurate words, but my point was still made.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#72

Post by TeMPOraL »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #40
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

Street protests are triggered by masses under the influence of people who have agendas. Given how the agenda for media outlets of today is mostly outrage generation (because it drives ad impressions), you can expect pretty much _anything_ that has any kind of meaning to be turned into a problem.

You don't have to look far for evidence - just turn on the TV. One good example that comes to mind is how anti-EU groups like to take benign, reasonable EU directives and paint them as proofs that EU is a dictatorship run by stupid bureaucrats. And then you have the whole population getting outraged over "straightening of bananas" or "labeling water", even though the whole thing is a purposefully manufactured piece of bullshit.

Now try to negotiate openly, when some group or another rallies public against you over every other issue.

I sympathize with the negotiators. I understand a need for having some room to discuss things before the mass idiocy ensues.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#73

Post by TeMPOraL »

atmosx wrote: post #45
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

> What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? Indeed. That alone, makes me not want to even take a look at the text and dismiss it right away as negative for the vast amounts of the population.

Imagine building a website for a client, and having them hover around you all the time, 24/7, looking at your screen and going:

- Oh, why did you put that button in here? What do you mean "temporary"?

- Why are you wasting time browsing that "documentation" site instead of writing code?

- What is this "class" thing? We're egalitarian company!

- Is this Ruby? Everyone knows websites are best done in PHP!

Usually you'd like to have a chance to at least finish a basic prototype in peace, before gathering customer feedback.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#74

Post by feelix »

walterbell wrote: post #9
sztwiorok wrote: post #7

can someone summarize ttip in 3 short points? I am sure that most people like me do not have a clue about what is ttip

5-min video on the major trade agreements and ISDS, https://youtube.com/watch?v=M4-mlGRPmkU

My god, this is brilliant

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#75

Post by yoplait_ »

adimitrov wrote: post #64
dash2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to solve that would be to have a period in which politicians had to justify their plans, including the kinds of trade deals they would negotiate, to the electorate. Then we could all vote for the politician we preferred. We could call it an "election campaign".

That's the big problem with TTIP: those who negotiated it (on the EU side at least) weren't elected representatives. In fact, elected representatives only very recently received very limited access to the negotiation documents themselves. In Germany, access was granted to members of parliament only January this year. Even so, they weren't even allowed to carry electronic devices or pen-and-paper notebooks. This is wh…

Elected representatives could not negotiate the deal themselves because it is way too technical. So the actual negotiators were given a mandate by the elected representatives. Elected representatives then get to decide whether they will vote for the deal. TTIP is dead because it's become clear the deal will not get approval from all representatives, in part because of public disapproval. In conclusion, TTIP _is_ democratic.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#76

Post by yoplait_ »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #41
fnj wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, due process sure is a drag, isn't it.

We wouldn't want to bug those poor negotiators while they whittle away what's left of our democracy

These deals take years to negotiate. It's just a matter of practicality. Democracy can always say no to deals if it wants to (as is happening here).

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#77

Post by hiou »

joelthelion wrote: post #39
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

If negotiations are completely secret, by the time the deal is ready it's too late to debate on the large orientations of the deal. Sorry but a large treaty like this cannot be completely negotiated completely behind closed doors. Negotiators need to deal with it.

So instead we will stay with the status quo where large multinationals pit country against country in a race to the bottom. Makes sense.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#78

Post by narrowrail »

bobwaycott wrote: post #68
icantdrive55 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(It was more about states rights, over federal rights. I don't think they really cared about slavery--unfortunately.)

No. Not at all. Not even in the slightest. This states rights bullshit started in the South as a defensive move to toss a more palatable, quasi-theoretical veneer on what was an unmitigated Southern revolt against the United States because of overt distaste at losing federal support and protection for continuing the practice of slavery. This exposed Southern dependence upon it as a basis for its economy and entire wa…

I'm curious what you think of the "community rights" movement currently underway that is attempting to curtail hydraulic fracturing?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#79

Post by tim333 »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

> street protests from the industries...

Are there any of those? All the protests I see are by the people against the industries

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#80

Post by chadcmulligan »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

That was a lot of peoples problem with the TTIP - there were secret courts that we the people would never know about
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