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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

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Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#41

Post by SturgeonsLaw »

fnj wrote: post #35
raphman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a nice explanation of the reasons for secrecy: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-trade-agreements-like-the-Tran... tl;dr: two reasons: if each minor step in the negotiations is made public, lobbyists and NGOs will constantly bug the negotiators. Furthermore, if one side publicly states which lines it will never cross in the negotiations, it loses leverage because the opposite side now knows on which points they c…

Yeah, due process sure is a drag, isn't it.

We wouldn't want to bug those poor negotiators while they whittle away what's left of our democracy

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#42

Post by colechristensen »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #40
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war.

Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#43

Post by jokoon »

The issue people are failing to see, is that usually, countries are negotiating against each other, for their own perceived interest. The much valued "rule of law" only applies within countries, not internationally. There are no "international law" for trade.

So it's a murky situation from the beginning. I think the TTIP is an attempt to have a common ground to end up with something instead of nothing. Of course there are huge interests at stake here, and I want to be the devil's advocate for once to try and understand the real philosophy of the treaty without the cynicism and a more strategic view in mind.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#44

Post by celticninja »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

Why don't you want people, who elect those making the trade deals, to let their representatives know how they feel about the things that they are voting on?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#45

Post by atmosx »

erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

> What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals?

Indeed. That alone, makes me not want to even take a look at the text and dismiss it right away as negative for the vast amounts of the population.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#46

Post by pluma »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

FWIW, the group TTIP was mostly going to "remove protectionist measures from" was consumers.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#47

Post by akhatri_aus »

celticninja wrote: post #44
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

Why don't you want people, who elect those making the trade deals, to let their representatives know how they feel about the things that they are voting on?

Because you want to test what is possible or what is on the table. It's difficult to do this in public.

For example imagine asking for some kind of legal jurisdiction on cigarettes and plain packaging, in being able to sue the government. Very unpopular, but it represents lots of jobs. Not that I like this. But its worth asking, just it wouldn't be very publicly promising. Though imagine foreign countries blocking American ones with simple plain packaging..

It's just good to scope what can be put on the table. But its a bit silly when it comes out that such a thing was asked for, even though its likely to be thrown off the table.

Something weird happened last year where I understood it a bit more on why these negotiations happen in private. There was a proposal over a treaty in banning ivory trade - this is great! Then looking over the clauses it meant the government had to enforce confiscating ivory from everyone's households, however old it is - and that's a bit weird. So they didn't adopt lots of provisions of the treaty. Initially it looked really strange on why the EU rejected an outright ivory ban.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#48

Post by pluma »

wildmusings wrote: post #37
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

This, and it allows the negotiating countries to save face when they make compromises. All real diplomacy is done in private for this reason.

By the time elected representatives get to vote on the deal, the decision boils down to "completely reject it" or "accept it as-is and hope that maybe some of the concerns will be noticed and adjustments will be made". And considering how politics work there's a huge incentive not to make the entire deal fail that far into the process.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#49

Post by pluma »

sam4ritan wrote: post #17
krylon wrote: post #3

> European Union ministers today admitted that a giant EU-US trade deal is dead in its current form , with drastic change needed to salvage any hope of a deal going ahead. The devil, as always, is in the fine print - a cynic might read that to mean "TTIP has gotten such a bad reputation we would rather wait a few more years so the public forgets all about it, then try again." In fact, I am tempted to quote Lovecraft…

Well, thats what happened to ACTA too, isn't it? A lot of the stuff that was in there got reused in TTIP.

You may be thinking of IPRED, not TTIP? IPRED popped up at some point during the anti-ACTA protests and seemed to have significant overlap.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#50

Post by ZoF »

akhatri_aus wrote: post #47
celticninja wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you want people, who elect those making the trade deals, to let their representatives know how they feel about the things that they are voting on?

Because you want to test what is possible or what is on the table. It's difficult to do this in public. For example imagine asking for some kind of legal jurisdiction on cigarettes and plain packaging, in being able to sue the government. Very unpopular, but it represents lots of jobs. Not that I like this. But its worth asking, just it wouldn't be very publicly promising. Though imagine foreign countries blocking Am…

Nothing you have presented here is rationale for denying the public insight into the process.

If there is something "meta" about a specific deal, the public can and will acknowledge that.

The implication you're making is that the general populace is too stupid to understand complex issues and should mindlessly accept the decisions of their politicians without any insight at all(let alone input).

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