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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

31–40 of 130 posts

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#31
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

A trade deal has to be negotiated, and your position as a negotiator improves when you and the other side know that you can follow through on any commitment you make.

Therefore it follows that anyone who can negotiate from a position of secrecy or absolute power (dictatorship) is in a better position to achieve his goals during a negotiation.

You might laugh at this but I believe this is exactly how the EU commission thinks about this. Maybe they will try later again in a more dictatorial manner since secrecy has failed, who knows.

The other extreme would be that you negotiate from a position where you are constantly attacked by NGOs and your own people, which certainly doesn't help with creating trust that you can follow through on anything you sign. You can certainly place your signature on a document but it means nothing because you can't execute.

This was actually a problem during the Cold War crisis between JFK and the Soviet leaders. The Soviets were hard to convince that JFK could follow through because he was so heavily opposed by his senior military staff. They actually believed that there was a real possibility that JFK would be disposed by a military coup so they thought a war between the Soviet Union and the US was imminent and acted accordingly.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#32
post #28
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

"... Upon the insistence of the US, the documents are not transmitted any more as electronic or even printed documents.[5] They are only made available [to authorised readers] in secure rooms at the European Commission HQ in Brussels, in a number of US embassies,[5] and at the offices of member states' trade ministries.[61] In all these secured rooms phones or other types of scanning device are forbidden.[5] Blank sheets of paper, marked with the reader's names, are provided on which visitors can jot down their notes.[61]..."[0]

How can my representative be really productive in analyzing such a deal? Why all the barriers to understand the document?

I didn't find out the time it's supposedly be public for debate, but if you're doing a deal for the people, you want people to negotiate, not just accept the deal as it is, which, as history taught us, it will be a really tight timeframe for debate and it's approved few days before a major holiday when people are distracted.

Our representatives must have our [all citizens] best interest at heart. I don't see how this is in our best interest.

And I didn't event talked about the deal itself, only the procedure which seems flawed.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Invest...

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#33
post #28
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

Here is a nice explanation of the reasons for secrecy:

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-trade-agreements-like-the-Tran...

tl;dr: two reasons: if each minor step in the negotiations is made public, lobbyists and NGOs will constantly bug the negotiators. Furthermore, if one side publicly states which lines it will never cross in the negotiations, it loses leverage because the opposite side now knows on which points they can expect less resistance, and will use this knowledge as a tactical advantage.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#34
post #28
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

Why would it not be released? CETA has been public for two years now. No reason to assume different about other EU trade agreements.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#35
post #33
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

Here is a nice explanation of the reasons for secrecy: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-trade-agreements-like-the-Tran... tl;dr: two reasons: if each minor step in the negotiations is made public, lobbyists and NGOs will constantly bug the negotiators. Furthermore, if one side publicly states which lines it will never cross in the negotiations, it loses leverage because the opposite side now knows on which points they c…

Yeah, due process sure is a drag, isn't it.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#36
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

"... Upon the insistence of the US, the documents are not transmitted any more as electronic or even printed documents.[5] They are only made available [to authorised readers] in secure rooms at the European Commission HQ in Brussels, in a number of US embassies,[5] and at the offices of member states' trade ministries.[61] In all these secured rooms phones or other types of scanning device are forbidden.[5] Blank sh…

> I didn't find out the time it's supposedly be public for debate, but if you're doing a deal for the people, you want people to negotiate, not just accept the deal as it is, which, as history taught us, it will be a really tight timeframe for debate and it's approved few days before a major holiday when people are distracted.

CETA was public for more than two years before it went for signing. Naturally nobody cared until the last 6 months.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#37
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

This, and it allows the negotiating countries to save face when they make compromises. All real diplomacy is done in private for this reason.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#38
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

[deleted]

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#39
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

If negotiations are completely secret, by the time the deal is ready it's too late to debate on the large orientations of the deal.

Sorry but a large treaty like this cannot be completely negotiated completely behind closed doors. Negotiators need to deal with it.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#40
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.
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