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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

61–70 of 130 posts

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

If negotiations are completely secret, by the time the deal is ready it's too late to debate on the large orientations of the deal. Sorry but a large treaty like this cannot be completely negotiated completely behind closed doors. Negotiators need to deal with it.

The orientation of the deal comes from the governments of the memeber states. There is a clear place to fix it and it's in your state if you dislike how it goes so far.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

The United States didn't abolish slavery until after the civil war as one of the Reconstruction Amendments. In a way, the war triggered abolition (or spurred it to happen more quickly), not the other way around.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#63
post #3

> European Union ministers today admitted that a giant EU-US trade deal is dead in its current form , with drastic change needed to salvage any hope of a deal going ahead. The devil, as always, is in the fine print - a cynic might read that to mean "TTIP has gotten such a bad reputation we would rather wait a few more years so the public forgets all about it, then try again." In fact, I am tempted to quote Lovecraft…

Offtopic, but does anyone else find Lovecraft too over-the-top? I know that many people like him, but it gets tiresome that everything is nameless, frightful, indescribable, hideous, hellish, monstrous, indescribable, etc. He's not very subtle at all with his descriptions, even a house that was previously established as super creepy gets an "abominable" when referring to it. I found him so over the top that I wanted…

I must admit I cracked up when seeing "PENGUINS" in that word cloud.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#64
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If negotiations are completely secret, by the time the deal is ready it's too late to debate on the large orientations of the deal. Sorry but a large treaty like this cannot be completely negotiated completely behind closed doors. Negotiators need to deal with it.

One way to solve that would be to have a period in which politicians had to justify their plans, including the kinds of trade deals they would negotiate, to the electorate. Then we could all vote for the politician we preferred. We could call it an "election campaign".

That's the big problem with TTIP: those who negotiated it (on the EU side at least) weren't elected representatives. In fact, elected representatives only very recently received very limited access to the negotiation documents themselves. In Germany, access was granted to members of parliament only January this year. Even so, they weren't even allowed to carry electronic devices or pen-and-paper notebooks.

This is why TTIP, no matter the content, is undemocratic. As is CETA.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

(It was more about states rights, over federal rights. I don't think they really cared about slavery--unfortunately.)

People say this, but they're being pedantic. Plenty of people cared a whole lot about slavery both in the human-rights sense and the economic sense. The war was fought over secession, but the states suceded as a direct result of the federal level's intention (and actions) to constrain and eventually extinct slavery and the southern slave economy.

It's something like saying my house actually burned down because it's made of wood, not because I let a kid play with matches.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#67
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

Exactly. Was there actually anything different at all about TTIP negotiations (vs other EU negotiations) until the leaks?

I was under the impression that most or all similar documents were only made available at a mature stage (eg after first official draft is ready, passed legal, translated etc).

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

(It was more about states rights, over federal rights. I don't think they really cared about slavery--unfortunately.)

No. Not at all. Not even in the slightest. This states rights bullshit started in the South as a defensive move to toss a more palatable, quasi-theoretical veneer on what was an unmitigated Southern revolt against the United States because of overt distaste at losing federal support and protection for continuing the practice of slavery. This exposed Southern dependence upon it as a basis for its economy and entire way of preferred life and wealth accumulation. Theorists such as John C. Calhoun and other notable Southern politicians began doing that thing that all politicians do, whereby issues are clouded behind intentional euphemisms that detract people from the core issues. Oh, sure, the South was worried about and fought for states' rights—states' rights to continue the practice of slavery in open defiance to what had been decided at the federal level over 60+ years of negotiations that continued to threaten Southern dependence on slave labor. Post-Reconstruction, this nonsense persisted to attempt to save face as the South reintegrated with the Union and federal government, and to shore up defenses for the establishment of Jim Crow. Today, this states' rights shit continues to get thought time in those who wish to continue the practice of defending indisputable discriminatory practices, engaging in revisionist history that needs to go away, and in those who, for whatever reason, refuse to accept that the Civil War never would have happened if slavery did not exist, was not defended throughout the South, and if Southern whites and their social, political, and economic leaders had read the writing on the wall, and admitted to the grave injustice they'd perpetuated against a whole group of people based solely on the color of their skin—and then began working to change the firmly entrenched racism that to this day continues to remain embedded in Southern thought and culture.

States' rights is a sham of an argument for the Civil War, and, too often, many other abhorrent practices today.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to solve that would be to have a period in which politicians had to justify their plans, including the kinds of trade deals they would negotiate, to the electorate. Then we could all vote for the politician we preferred. We could call it an "election campaign".

That's the big problem with TTIP: those who negotiated it (on the EU side at least) weren't elected representatives. In fact, elected representatives only very recently received very limited access to the negotiation documents themselves. In Germany, access was granted to members of parliament only January this year. Even so, they weren't even allowed to carry electronic devices or pen-and-paper notebooks. This is wh…

Fair point, but then surely it is the EU that is undemocratic rather than TTIP.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#70
post #18

It's also due to the US elections. The same thing happened last time. Negotiations will come back under a new name - and probably a slightly different scope and form, after the new administration has been designated.

Yup. Obama is sliding into lame-duck territory, with a Congress that won't agree with him on anything. Chances of successfully sliding anything in before January are not good, and then it will be a more-or-less different regime involved.
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