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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

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Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#51

Post by evgen »

erhardm wrote: post #32
sehr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

"... Upon the insistence of the US, the documents are not transmitted any more as electronic or even printed documents.[5] They are only made available [to authorised readers] in secure rooms at the European Commission HQ in Brussels, in a number of US embassies,[5] and at the offices of member states' trade ministries.[61] In all these secured rooms phones or other types of scanning device are forbidden.[5] Blank sh…

That would be because your representative is not a negotiator. They get to approve or reject the deal once it is done, but "people" do not get involved in the negotiation because "people" have a lot of parochial interests and are, as history has taught us, quite ignorant. Sorry if this bothers you, but it is how trade deals have always been done and is how they will always be conducted going forward.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#52

Post by izacus »

jokoon wrote: post #43

The issue people are failing to see, is that usually, countries are negotiating against each other, for their own perceived interest. The much valued "rule of law" only applies within countries, not internationally. There are no "international law" for trade. So it's a murky situation from the beginning. I think the TTIP is an attempt to have a common ground to end up with something instead of nothing. Of course ther…

> So it's a murky situation from the beginning. I think the TTIP is an attempt to have a common ground to end up with something instead of nothing.

That's the standard rationalization we've been fed form EU comission as well. But when that "something" means that we give up on our EU consumer protection laws to benefit american corporate profits it's actively harmful and against the values of people actually living in EU.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#53

Post by icantdrive55 »

colechristensen wrote: post #42
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

(It was more about states rights, over federal rights. I don't think they really cared about slavery--unfortunately.)

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#54

Post by meira »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

It would be better and more effective if the protesters barely strip down the "negotiators"?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#55

Post by evgen »

toyg wrote: post #30
lumberjack wrote: post #16

So the US negotiators don't want to concede anything. So then one questions what they had in mind to convince the EU negotiators to go on with the deal...

US elites got used to a very sweet state of things in transatlantic relations post-1989, and it got even better after 9/11. Steamrolling Europeans was almost too easy, because Euroelites had been fully co-opted by the American way. Unfortunately, 13 years of unpopular wars have taken their toll. There are now two generations of politically-active Europeans who were not invested in the Cold War, and see the US fundame…

Possibly. An equally likely situation is that US leadership can see that the EU is falling apart. The UK is already headed out the door, the failure of EU banking and financial institutions given the current massive debt problems, and a collective that seems to only be able to solve their bleak demographic future by pulling in eastern European basket-cases that no one really wants to have in the union makes an EU trade deal less important. Why waste time dickering with a declining EU when you can get a better return on your efforts by improving trade with Asia and Africa?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#56

Post by meira »

colechristensen wrote: post #42
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

And when US ended civil liberties around the world (with the mislead subject of "terrorism"), it triggered some wars too.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#57

Post by yxhuvud »

cperciva wrote: post #29
erhardm wrote: post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

Yes, the life of the politicians are easier if they don't have to be accountable for the stances they take in the negotiations. It seems to me that if the politicians want to get anything done, they'd have to convince their electorate that what they are doing is a good thing. If they have trouble justifying that, then they shouldn't do it in the first place.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#58

Post by bluecalm »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #40
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

The problem is that minority can organize a street protest to protect its interest at the cost of interest of general public who is not that motivated to take it to the street on what is one of many (and often not in the category of the most important ones) issues for them.

One example is Uber. Everyone I know who uses it loves it, it's cheaper, more reliable, the service is better as well. Despite all of it there are protests because it hurts one group (taxi drivers) a lot. It really is a problem when special interest group can force their way at the cost of the public just because they are louder and organized enough to take the matter to the streets.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#59

Post by dash2 »

joelthelion wrote: post #39
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

If negotiations are completely secret, by the time the deal is ready it's too late to debate on the large orientations of the deal. Sorry but a large treaty like this cannot be completely negotiated completely behind closed doors. Negotiators need to deal with it.

One way to solve that would be to have a period in which politicians had to justify their plans, including the kinds of trade deals they would negotiate, to the electorate. Then we could all vote for the politician we preferred. We could call it an "election campaign".

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#60

Post by dash2 »

ZoF wrote: post #50
akhatri_aus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you want to test what is possible or what is on the table. It's difficult to do this in public. For example imagine asking for some kind of legal jurisdiction on cigarettes and plain packaging, in being able to sue the government. Very unpopular, but it represents lots of jobs. Not that I like this. But its worth asking, just it wouldn't be very publicly promising. Though imagine foreign countries blocking Am…

Nothing you have presented here is rationale for denying the public insight into the process. If there is something "meta" about a specific deal, the public can and will acknowledge that. The implication you're making is that the general populace is too stupid to understand complex issues and should mindlessly accept the decisions of their politicians without any insight at all(let alone input).

The population doesn't have time to understand the intricate details of every trade deal. Not because they're stupid, just because they don't specialise in politics.
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