Coup attempt underway in Turkey • Hacker News Board

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#221

Post by int_19h » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:35 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #191

jwhitlark wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also notable that there are many different militaries in the US: the 5 main national branches, the national guard units of the various states, as well as the state defense forces, that some states also maintain.

That's pretty nominal. Good luck to the governor trying to muster the national guard to confront federal troops.

It provides a framework that can be filled if and when needed. NG and SDF may very well answer the call - it all depends on what exactly it is in response to.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#222

Post by drauh » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:35 AM UTC

CSDude wrote: post #192

Reporting from Ankara, capital. Ongoing sonic booms followed by bombings. Scary as hell. My niece is 8mo, in each jet and helicopter pass we take cover on her and we baricated home with tables. No one knows what is going on, and media claims control is in place.

Holy shit. Good luck, and stay safe!

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#223

Post by throwaway-hn123 » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:37 AM UTC

desas wrote: post #131

Jugurtha wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have attained an interesting stalemate where a corrupt/crazy monarch would struggle to assert power, yet a grossly malfunctioning government can still, in theory, be replaced by one if the people were to allow it. Could you elaborate, please?

The monarch can suspend parliament. The monarch can dismiss a prime minister (not happened for > 100 years). The monarch can appoint a new one. Every law has to be signed by the monarch (it's not been refused in 300 years). The monarch is commander in chief. Power resides where people believe it resides. The monarch can only do any of that if people believe in the monarch.

The monarch can do all those things, but in reality if she tried to dismiss a PM or refuse to sign a bill, it would be a matter of days or weeks before the monarchy ceased to be an institution.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#224

Post by int_19h » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

tobias3 wrote: post #129

majani wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a chart that describes the practical steps: https://embed.gyazo.com/4324b66e1a3045ad63349061a76f4756.png According to that illustration, the coup plotters missed the crucial step of breaching the president's residence and capturing him. They completely mistimed the coup when the president was on vacation outside the country. Now he has been able to rally support against the coup and his supporters are on the…

He was reportedly on holiday in Turkey in Marmaris, so maybe they did not know where he was or did not have the man power to capture him. I wonder how it would have played out if they had captured him. I can even imagine that more people would have protested.

Deliberately timing coups for when the standing leader is on vacation is actually not all that uncommon, because it makes it possible to contain them under pretense of normalcy. E.g. Gorbachev in 1991, where they basically locked him up in his Crimean residence.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#225

Post by vacri » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

feral wrote: post #189

petercooper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

>If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, I really find it difficult to believe its a desirable state of affairs that the army in a 'democracy' swears allegiance to a hereditary monarch, and that its good, if as you say, people in the army take that seriously. What if the interests of the monarch conflicted with the interests of the people? In some sense that meant 'push…

> The monarch is just another citizen - another random human - who just happened to be born into a particular family

Nope. The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and politics, and has a great network of political connections and the ability to speak with effect to powerbrokers. Whether or not the monarch is morally good is a different argument, but they are mostly definitely not interchangeable with any other citizen picked at random. The same is true of politicians in general - you need political skill, a support network, and basic knowledge of how the system works. Sadly, you don't need administrative skill...

It's weird also that you're from Ireland, and haven't picked up on the general UK arrangement between the government and the royals: "You don't tell us what to do, and we don't tell you to sod off". Liz has been famously apolitical in particular. You're right that no-one believes that she has a divine right to rule... and she doesn't actually rule. She doesn't declare law, or negotiate trade treaties.

Disclaimer: I'm an Australian who wouldn't mind getting rid of the Queen, but who also knows that zero would change politically from that - the 'governor general' here would simply be renamed the 'president', and power would still remain with the prime minister + cohort. Liz doesn't even pick the governor general - it's 'suggested' to her, and she allows it. Like the UK government, if she started to kick up a fuss, it'd be "well, bye!".

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#226

Post by vacri » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

foota wrote: post #145

_pferreir_ wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that have to do with monarchy? The same happens in some republics. E.g. in Portugal there is a prime minister (government) and a president who acts as supreme commander of the armed forces.

Probably because the monarchy isn't elected and so might maintain some ability to persevere through times when the population might make poor decisions. Also immune to bad elections.

Heads of state (eg presidents) are frequently not elected, but instead appointed by heads of government (eg prime ministers). Heads of state are symbolic and do lots of ceremony (some have a bit of power), and heads of government are where the power sits. Heads of state can usually have the power to dissolve government in a crisis, but they can't appoint government (in western democracies).

The US is a little unusual amongst Western democracies in that the head of state is the same person as the head of government.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#227

Post by 55555 » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:43 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #174

55555 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thailand has something similarly interesting. They basically have three branches of the state which balance power: the Monarchy, the Government, and the Military. When the government steps out of line, the Monarchy will approve of a coop by the Military. Laypeople, not knowing whether the coop will be good or bad, will look to the Monarchy to see whether it approves. > A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-d…

> Huh. It would be nice if we had that here in the US. That would never function well in the US. It would result in a massive civil war. The general population has hundreds of millions of guns and is very far apart on ideology - that's a lethal combination if unleashed in terms of a violent internal conflict. US culture is also far more aggressive than Turkey's, and the behavior of the government in the US is far mor…

I think you're probably right. I wasn't seriously suggesting it. I simply meant to state my feeling that our "democratic arm" has been violating our country's "fundamental principles."

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#228

Post by jazzyk » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:44 AM UTC

gakada wrote: post #216

jazzyk wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone take a deep breath. The ban in France is for face-covering only, and it applies to anybody (male/female). There are serious reasons for this, both cultural- and security-based. Head scarves are allowed in France, to the best of my knowledge. EDIT: The law bans "the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools" [1] So you can wear a head scarf as long as…

Headscarves not tolerated either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...

Please see my edit above: you can wear a head scarf, as long as it does not imply (any) religious affiliation.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#229

Post by argonaut » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:44 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #65

ugh123 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Sounds a lot like Iran, although their "democratic arm" is very much a farce.

Sounds more like the US. Turkey's unelected group which intervenes when the elected government violates established norms consists of officers ultimately appointed by (and who can be removed by) the elected organs of government . Same as in the US, though for us it's the judicial branch rather than the military. Now, there's a pretty enormous difference, both in abstract structure and practice, between the US and Tur…

Well, the "enormous difference" is so enormous this really isn't a good comparison.

The judiciary is the weakest branch of government. The judges can be impeached by Congress. Congress can arbitrarily expand the size of the Supreme Court and then, with the President, start appointing whoever they want (e.g. there are 9 justices right now. Congress could constitutionally pass a law making there be 21 justices). Finally, and most damning, the judiciary has no power to enforce its decisions. It relies on the respect of the executive branch to enforce its decisions. There are plenty of (fortunately long-past) historical examples of the executive branch blatantly ignoring the judiciary. Contrast this to the military, which has very obvious ultimate power to enforce itself.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#230

Post by stouset » Sat, Jul 16, 2016, 2:45 AM UTC

foota wrote: post #145

_pferreir_ wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that have to do with monarchy? The same happens in some republics. E.g. in Portugal there is a prime minister (government) and a president who acts as supreme commander of the armed forces.

Probably because the monarchy isn't elected and so might maintain some ability to persevere through times when the population might make poor decisions. Also immune to bad elections.

And what happens if the monarchy makes poor decisions?