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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

171–180 of 375 posts

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#171
post #77
post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

It's certainly a strong reminder that a democracy does not necessarily support liberalism like ours do in the West. It has to be a core tenant that the population believes in.

It should be noted that Turkey is generally considered a western country.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#172
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system.

I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something.

It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#173
post #124

https://fr24.com/THY8456/a5a3952 That looks like Erdogan's jet. Was in a holding pattern for the last hour. Now heading to Istanbul. Seems like the coup has failed?

How do you know that's his jet?

Turkish government Gulfstream, and the flight details match up with the reports that he has now landed in Turkey.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#174
post #94
post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

Thailand has something similarly interesting. They basically have three branches of the state which balance power: the Monarchy, the Government, and the Military. When the government steps out of line, the Monarchy will approve of a coop by the Military. Laypeople, not knowing whether the coop will be good or bad, will look to the Monarchy to see whether it approves. > A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-d…

> Huh. It would be nice if we had that here in the US.

That would never function well in the US. It would result in a massive civil war. The general population has hundreds of millions of guns and is very far apart on ideology - that's a lethal combination if unleashed in terms of a violent internal conflict. US culture is also far more aggressive than Turkey's, and the behavior of the government in the US is far more militaristic and violent (and the same is true of the police forces in the US). Such an event would be more likely to permanently rupture the US.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. separation of power is based on similar ideas. Congress makes laws on a day-by-day basis, but when the will of the people contradicts certain fundamental principles enshrined in the Constitution, the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws.

> the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws Notably, this power does not appear in the Constitution. See Marbury v. Madison [1]. (Not that it makes a practical difference, but it is interesting to see how our conception of government powers and the basic government structure changes over time, even without new constitutional amendments.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

Marbury v. Madison is much more nuanced than that.

Imagine that the decision in Marbury v. Madison came out the opposite way; or, more abstractly, that the Supreme Court upheld legislation that was prima facie contradictory to the text of Constitution. That would necessarily imply one of two things; either 1) the courts are choosing to enforce an illegal law, or 2) the courts are deferring to Congress's interpretation of the Constitution and thus concluding that, despite appearances, it's legal. The former would mean that there was no rule of law. The latter would mean that the Supreme Court isn't actually the _supreme_ court, but rather an inferior court in terms of interpreting the law.

The logic of Marbury v. Madison says that because the American form of government is built upon on the principle of separation of powers, and that in the English tradition it's the court's role to interpret statutes (not the legislature's), that it would be a violation of separation of powers for the Supreme Court to defer to Congress's interpretation of the constitution. Also, in the English tradition of Due Process laws can generally only be enforced through court order, not independently by executive fiat. And the U.S. Constitution explicitly says that the "judicial power" rests with the courts.

The academic debate about judicial review is misleading. Judicial review is often described in contradistinction to the rule in England--Parliamentary Supremacy. But we must remember two critical things: 1) the UK does not have a written constitution, and 2) until just a few years ago the highest court in the UK was composed of Law Lords from the House of Lords. The House of Lords being a constituent part of Parliament, the highest court was thus the same institution as the body writing legislation.

The debate about what we now call judicial review didn't just occur at the national level; it played out in every single state. And while many contemporary jurists paid lip service to the idea of courts being inferior to the legislative body, I don't think the debate played out any differently in any of original colonies or subsequent states in actuality. It's really difficult in the Anglo-American legal tradition for courts to _not_ have the power of judicial review, while maintaining the logic the political system is built upon.

We can _imagine_ a constitutional system where courts defer to the explicit or implicit decision of the legislature regarding constitutionality. But I don't think that actually exists anywhere in the world where the principle of separation of powers is enshrined in the organic law (written or unwritten). The closest I can think of is Japan where their supreme court regularly seems to uphold statutes which conflict with the written constitution, but they _have_ nullified statutes a few times, and certainly I don't think they've formally abdicated their role wrt judicial review.

We do have a form of the above in the United States. There are some situations which are considered "non-judiciable" by the Supreme Court. For example, nobody can challenge through the courts some of the formal requirements the Constitution imposes on Congress regarding their proceedings. The Supreme Court has said that in some situations it must refrain from exercising it's normal power of judicial review because it would cause the court, as an institution, to become too entangled with another branch of government. This is also partly why courts are reticent to censure or make demands on high-level executive officials, e.g. regarding national security. Even if behavior is patently illegal, by getting involved the court risks injuring the very principle of separation of powers by imposing its interpretation of the law above that of the other body.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

This is similar to the US system, except that our Speaker of the House has less power than the Prime Minister, and our President has (a lot) more power than the monarch.

No, the army gives allegiance to the Constitution. I hope they stand for that against any branch of government.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was reportedly on holiday in Turkey in Marmaris, so maybe they did not know where he was or did not have the man power to capture him. I wonder how it would have played out if they had captured him. I can even imagine that more people would have protested.

Its funny how Putin and Erdogan were meeting a couple of days ago. Maybe Erdogan was warned and took "a vacation"?

It was widely noted in the media that France closed its Turkish embassy (on "security fears") two days prior to this. It certainly makes you wonder if the word didn't get out.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#178
post #79
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they see the coup as endangering the economic situation which could lead to more job-losses and the like. Let's be honest, would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis?

> would you support a coup in your country if that meant potentially years of unrest and economic crisis Of course I would. Once you have children, you have a foot in the future. You look at what your counry will be like in 30 or 40 or 50 years. You don't focus so much on short term gains, but on long term gains. If you feel that your country is heading down the wrong path, and altering that path will result in a bet…

> because long term, they will be better off.

Because long term, they believe they will be better off.

And really, many people cast their vote as a protest vote for the current politics, rather than as a genuine opposition to EU.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#179
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case.

I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching tolerance.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is similar to the US system, except that our Speaker of the House has less power than the Prime Minister, and our President has (a lot) more power than the monarch.

Those changes take away the benefit he outlines for his system. In the US system the President is the most dangerous actor (notwithstanding the Federalist Papers prediction that it would be Congress). That said, I'm not sure I like the idea of the military as a last resort. At most I think it would be best if they stood aside for a revolution rather than actually instigating a coup.

In the US, the last resort is theoretically the Unorganized Militia. However, as the name implies, they are unorganized and to rely on them is leaning on a broken staff.
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