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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#91

Post by lumberjack »

tdaltonc wrote: post #13
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

But how do you make sure that the military has the right "fundamental principles"?

Reduce the standing army and replace it with conscripts.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#92

Post by petercooper »

whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles"

Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously).

We have attained an interesting stalemate where a corrupt/crazy monarch would struggle to assert power, yet a grossly malfunctioning government can still, in theory, be replaced by one if the people were to allow it.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#93

Post by einrealist »

gkya wrote: post #63
einrealist wrote: post #46

It is bad that a (mostly) democratic elected government is (tried to be) removed this way. This will make it really difficult to work with whoever is in power, internationally. But Erdogan forced this on the military. They were told to stand down against ISIS and to fight a new impossible-to-win fight against the kurdish minority. I really hope the situation will somehow calm down. Otherwise we could have a new civil…

The elections however were a great mess. On the first election on 7th june 15 AKP was 40%, but opposition failed to form coalition and Erdogan abused power as head of state to fill up 45 days w/o a new govt so that elections would be repeated. So happened, elections were to be repeated on 10th november the same year, and in the meantime the war on PKK started, major attacks by ISIS happened, and people feared unstabi…

I agree. The election was a shit show. In addition, Erdogan's apparatus attacked liberal institutions and people with investigations and law suits. But Erdogan would not be able to do so, if he had not have the support of a majority. So in a way, its a somewhat weird, imperfect democratic process.

My hope is with the young turkish people, to influence the situation in a good way. Maybe this will trigger a much stronger democratic process. Anyhow, Erdogan should step down.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#94

Post by 55555 »

whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

Thailand has something similarly interesting. They basically have three branches of the state which balance power: the Monarchy, the Government, and the Military. When the government steps out of line, the Monarchy will approve of a coop by the Military. Laypeople, not knowing whether the coop will be good or bad, will look to the Monarchy to see whether it approves.

> A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles"

Huh. It would be nice if we had that here in the US.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#95

Post by nononosisisi »

enraged_camel wrote: post #34
BukhariH wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so sure about Erdogan losing power. Erdogan has an extreme amount of support within the country not just from the people but from the Turkish intelligence services & military aswell. A lot of people have elevated him to the same level as Ataturk. I'm about 80% sure Erdogan will manage to retain power from just what I know about Turkish politics - which isn't a lot to be honest. Early days right now but…

The majority of people who support Erdogan are simply opportunists. They don't actually care about him. He has managed to maintain power and influence mostly by bullying and bribing people and illegally detaining or otherwise silencing those who speak against him. We're about to see just how resilient his house of cards is.

So he is like Chavez? I hope the country does no end up like Venezuela.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#96

Post by dragonwriter »

vacri wrote: post #78
einrealist wrote: post #46

It is bad that a (mostly) democratic elected government is (tried to be) removed this way. This will make it really difficult to work with whoever is in power, internationally. But Erdogan forced this on the military. They were told to stand down against ISIS and to fight a new impossible-to-win fight against the kurdish minority. I really hope the situation will somehow calm down. Otherwise we could have a new civil…

Turkey has a history of these kinds of coups. The reason why it hasn't happened earlier in Erdogan's reign is because Turkey is trying to join the EU, and military coups work against that as it means the state is not stable. However, Turkey is interesting in that the military coups are usually conducted in the name of freeing the people, rather than oppressing them. Usually it's just naked power grabs.

Military coups are almost always in the name of freeing the people. If Turkey is special, its because its military coups actually end up doing something like that in previous, not that they are in the name of it.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#97

Post by zappo2938 »

tdaltonc wrote: post #13
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

But how do you make sure that the military has the right "fundamental principles"?

Control Hollywood.[0]

[0] http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm#Memo

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#98

Post by oblio »

pi-err wrote: post #89
kiba wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly a strong reminder that a democracy does not necessarily support liberalism like ours do in the West. It has to be a core tenant that the population believes in.

France would be a good western example of the frail intrinsic support for liberalism by democracy.

Why? France has been liberal and democratic for the last 100+ years.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#99

Post by dragonwriter »

ugh123 wrote: post #90
dragonwriter wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds more like the US. Turkey's unelected group which intervenes when the elected government violates established norms consists of officers ultimately appointed by (and who can be removed by) the elected organs of government . Same as in the US, though for us it's the judicial branch rather than the military. Now, there's a pretty enormous difference, both in abstract structure and practice, between the US and Tur…

Not seeing any similarity there other than being a separate group. At least the judicial branch has to follow procedure and constitutional law, whereas a military can just rule via force.

The judicial branch decides what Constitutional Law means. Its constraints on doing that are largely that it had traditions of applying certain principals developed by the judiciary itself, and, of course, that it is constrained by what people will follow when it issues its dictates.

But, yes, the similarity is quite distant, as I said; just less distant than that in the offered comparison between Turkey and Iraq.

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