For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

> I think that's the point of disagreement. Is it ever appropriate to address an adult "woman in distress" as "honey" if you are an older male and not in a relationship with her?

Again, over again, one more time, yet again, here on HN I was not addressing any particular woman. Instead, there was full anonymity on both sides. So, there was nothing personal involved. I used no names and, really, know no names of the women, and the women don't know my name. So, what I wrote was not really personal. I never claimed or suggested that what I wrote would be appropriate to say directly from a particular man to a particular woman in a real office, employment context; guessing or concluding that I was so suggesting was an unjustified "extrapolation" and, likely, some hypersensitivity to some of the attitudes of political correctness. So, clearly one should take what I wrote as what a man would tell his wife, sister, or daughter.

In our society, in a case of such anonymity, such use of honey is common. E.g., Trump says in public that he "cherishes women". Well, maybe he does. But that is not the same as him walking up to a particular woman, one of thousands at his rallies, and saying "I cherish you". Everyone knows this difference.

On my parents, my mother was born and raised in Ohio, and my father, in Upstate NY. He met my mother in Ohio, and they got married in Ohio. My father went to the Old South because that is where his employer wanted him. My parents had no sympathy at all for the racial norms of the Old South; my ancestors are from England and Germany, but I hated those norms of the Old South and got the hack out of there ASAP. I'm in NYS and don't want to go back to the US South. My mother's approach was clear: Since she did work, she hired a maid for some of the house work. The maid was Black. Mom was sure to make the maid's US Social Security contributions. That was extraordinary.

I completely identify with the parent here - I'm a male, and I avoid even the appearance of close relationships with female colleagues. To be fair, that's not terribly difficult for me anyhow, as I'm not someone who socializes with colleagues of either gender often outside of work.

After much reflection, I agree that this behavior harms my female colleagues. However, I also believe that it harms my career opportunities in exactly the same manner. Just as they do not have the opportunity to build those closer relationships we me, I miss out on the same with them.

"These people are bullying you, and you're being polite back to them."

I think this pretty much summarizes something that should be transmitted to all women in these sort of situations.

Years ago, I had intense debates with my mother about the Monica Lewinsky case. I made essentially the same point you're making here: that focusing on the power imbalance stripped Lewinsky of her agency as an adult woman. My mother's arguments that Bill Clinton had too much relative power (and was too much older) for the relationship to be reasonable didn't really sink in for me at the time.

As I've learned more about feminism in recent years, I've found myself thinking about Clinton and Lewinsky again, and I'm much more on her side now. (I still don't entirely buy the age-based concern that she raised.) Even if the relationship was entirely consensual and entirely initiated by Lewinsky and they were both happy about it, that still doesn't mean that it was healthy for the morale of their workplace, for all the reasons I listed before (quite apart from Kenneth Starr). I don't put primary blame on Lewinsky for that (though as an adult she ought to have known better): as the "boss" in the situation, it was Clinton's responsibility to turn her down, at least until he was out of office or she no longer worked for the federal government.

As for the flirty student seducing the professor, it takes two to tango. Speaking as a professor who's been pretty clearly flirted with at least once, I can tell you that I had no trouble at all indicating my lack of interest. I'm not condemning her for "setting back gender equality", but it was blindingly clear to me as the person on top of the power imbalance that anything other than a professional relationship would absolutely call my objectivity in the class into question. (In that particular case it didn't help that our broader conversation that day was about her concerns about her grade, but I would have had the same issues even if she'd had a solid A.) If a pairing like that were truly meant to be, the student would be welcome to come back and make a proposition after commencement. In the meantime, I can assure you that having my undergrads be "off limits" romantically doesn't feel like an undue burden on my love life. (Admittedly, I've been married the whole time I've been a professor. But the point still stands.)

Re: your last paragraph, about my 2nd paragraph: The original article that this whole thread is responding to is literally a collection of quotes and stories from women who found this sort of environment miserable and want it to change. If that's not enough for you, I don't think me Googling to find you more examples is likely to change your mind.

I have invested some years of my life in trying to change that on HN. I feel I have seen progress here. I am reasonably pleased with the direction things are going.