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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#341

Post by ElComradio »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #265
vkou wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.

> Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment. Yet this behavior is romanticised is popular culture, and has been from the dawn of time up to and including the present: Oddyseus and Helen of Troy, Shakespeare's "The taming of the shrew", tons of Fred Astaire movies, as well as modern movies like "Ghost", "Life is beautiful", "Chasing Amy", TV shows like "Sex and the city"... I could go on. Lucikly I don't n…

It goes both ways. Numerous female pop stars, and in entertainment in general, angling and fishing to steal away the guy from his relationship because she KNOWS they are meant to be together... She doesn't hear "No thanks" and go away.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#342

Post by woodman »

wfo wrote: post #312
woodman wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing an assault as sexual harassment is ridiculous. That is like describing a murder as impolite driving... that resulted in the flattening of a person who you happened to want dead. We are talking about different things here, and conflating them isn't going to help anybody.

It's okay for words to have wide and general meaning. Assault can mean flicking someone with your middle finger. It can mean saying something threatening. Sexual assault is a kind of assault. Barfights and brutally beating someone all count. Similarly with sexual harassment. It doesn't mean exactly what you have in your head at this particular moment and nothing else no matter what anyone else says. Look it up if you…

> Look it up if you care to and you'll find its definition is quite broad...

I'd think that my awareness of the broad definition would be made clear by my repeated warnings that criminalization would narrow it.

> Nobody is suggesting locking people up in jail for saying bad words...

Well the poster that I initially replied to was pretty explicit about getting the police involved, as have a few other people here. So I'm not sure if your point is that I should be more charitable and assume that when someone says "sexual harassment" they don't mean sexual harassment, or if your point is that police should get involved but somehow leave the whole threat of violence thing at the door.

> That is what we are discussing, so when...

That isn't what I was discussing, and you replied to me, so you must be referring to yourself with the royal "we". I'll be more charitable and assume that people don't mean what they say, but I'd appreciate it if you'd extend me the same generosity and assume that I've chosen my words carefully.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#343

Post by kefka »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #206
kefka wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a guy and have been subject to sexual harassment. Now, I'm also bisexual, and I get that people want to be forward. It's called a mating signal for a reason, and that area is fraught with misunderstandings on both sides. Well, I went in to a bar with my wife and a guy friend (of both of us). He's gay. We tried a relationship with him prior, but distance/timing meant it wouldnt. So, we were up visiting and going t…

Is it possible that that's typical and accepted behavior at that bar? If it's a gay bar, frequently attended by bears, with literal pornography playing on the walls, I would expect the social interaction there to be different from my neighborhood bar - which is a friendly place where my wife and I bring our kid on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. It sounds to me like your friend was being an asshole by a) not informin…

Of course. The 3 of us were intending to get a drink or two at a bar in the course of the evening. I also occasionally go to a GLBT bar locally, so it's not out of the ordinary to go to one up there. He also told us that it was a gay bar, and we were initially OK with it.

Also to note, that I and my wife are bisexual and polyamorous (although with each other currently).

What did floor me was the signalling to other patrons that I was his in some capacity. Honestly I didn't have a clue what to really expect, as its very even keel at the local GLBT bar (mating signals are up front, simple no means no - probably due to being in a liberal college town).

And no, someone showing interest in me, be they male or female is cool :) Talking dirty? That's fine, until/if I say no more. I understand that and am flattered. Assaulting me... not cool. Liberal with words, and conservative with actions is usually how I handle mating signs.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#344

Post by nkurz »

graycat wrote: post #241
ksenzee wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Honey"? Who on earth do you think you're talking to? Please tell me this post is performance art and not the way you actually talk to women in your real life.

Again, over again, yet again, one more time, once again, this time just for you, I clearly, clearly, clearly, more than once, clearly, very clearly, fully unambiguously, said, fully clearly, right there, "... honey, and I say this out of 100% affection, caring, and respect" And I said "honey" with "100% affection, caring, and respect". 100%. Clearly. > Please tell me this post is performance art and not the way you a…

My response was fully appropriate for and corresponding to the content of the OP -- fully.

I realize you are certain of this, but I'm equally certain that a vast majority of those who would write the original post would consider your suggestions to be "part of the problem". Perhaps they are wrong, but from their viewpoint your response is indistinguishable from parody.

And I said "honey" with "100% affection, caring, and respect".

Assume that we were discussing a post by a older male African-American software engineer lamenting the impact of racial discrimination on his career. Then assume that you kept addressing him as "boy" while proclaiming your sympathy for the "plight of the Negro condition". Although possibly well-intentioned, this is how your response strikes others.

But, you are attacking me, me, personally, not the content of my post, and based on your assumption of something about my behavior in real life and not in my post.

No, 'ksenzee' is offering you valuable feedback on how a majority of working-age Americans would view your approach. It's not extrapolating to actions beyond your post, merely reacting strongly and negatively to the sentiment you express. You clearly disagree, but this doesn't make it an attack, just a major difference in world view.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#345

Post by vkou »

ElComradio wrote: post #148
vkou wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

This is the unintended consequence of a lifetime of hearing that men are dangerous and might kill you. Threats are everywhere, says the media, constantly.

... And so do individual women. In this thread, even. Are they all lying?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#346

Post by nommm-nommm »

grahamburger wrote: post #268

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

>For example, it's not at all uncommon for me to comment to a male co-worker who comes in to work dressed up more than usual 'looking sharp, man!' or something along those lines. Would that be sexual harassment if I said that to a woman? Probably not on the face of it, but what if she has just (unbeknownst to me) endured harassment from another co-worker about her looks - then I could see my comment adding to the fire. Or what if I without thinking said something that implied that her dress would make her a more valuable employee or help her get that promotion or whatever. So, I just avoid it altogether.

I find the best policy is to not make any comments about other's appearance/weight. That topic is a minefield for all genders. There's exceptions to this policy - if you were a manager instructing a subordinate about appropriate dress for work for example. Or asking if there was a special occasion for them to get dressed up for but not commenting directly on their appearance.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#347

Post by serge2k »

grahamburger wrote: post #268

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

I'm sure women appreciate you acting paranoid and terrified of accidentally interacting with them in the workplace.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#348

Post by ElComradio »

vkou wrote: post #345
ElComradio wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the unintended consequence of a lifetime of hearing that men are dangerous and might kill you. Threats are everywhere, says the media, constantly.

... And so do individual women. In this thread, even. Are they all lying?

Are our only choices: 1) Violence against women never occurs, and 2) Most men are barely contained threats?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#349

Post by AnthonyMouse »

scott_s wrote: post #237
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. It seems to matter quite a lot to people whether harassment is characterized as gender-based or not, and we don't have any apparent evidence that it is. Though I've never really been sure why being a jerk to someone because they're a woman should be any different than being a jerk in exactly the same way for some enti…

Your last question is a good one, and the pithy answer is, because it's against the law. But the real answer is that it's against the law because gender discrimination and sexual harassment (and a single act can be both) are such a systemic problem that we had to create laws to address it specifically.

Which then end up being less effective because they require proving the offender's state of mind.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#350

Post by qb45 »

ownagefool wrote: post #307
stcredzero wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do? I'd give a straight-forward answer to a fellow adult, assuming she or he will take it in a rational and mature fashion. I certainly wouldn't say anything that could be confused on the surface with, "I would, but I can't."

Cool. You've now crippled the a girls self-esteem, where as using the nice way would give her the ability to lie to herself whilst making sure to never ask again.

> lie to herself whilst making sure to never ask again.

How is this a good thing? It just confuses people.

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