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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#271

Post by stcredzero »

scott_s wrote: post #261
stcredzero wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that trying to sound like "yes in principle" while not satisfying that in a detail is just weird on the face of it. If it's a social norm, it's an illogical and out of whack social norm. Grown women are just as rational and emotionally tough as men. If you claim the task of saying no is too much for them, I don't buy it. I think it's telling that in contexts where consensuality is even more immediately criti…

The goal is not to sound like "yes in principle" because they usually don't say yes, they typically say "Oh, I can't, I'm busy, I have to meet a friend for dinner". I have also been gender neutral in my pronouns because I'm a guy, I've been asked out by women I did not want to go out with, and it was awkward, and it would have felt worse to just say a simple "No, I'm not interested". But she picked up on that just fi…

This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted. I've also been in situations where I properly took the information as literal, and this was the right thing to do.

I associate this degree of social/mental gymnastics with Victorian England or the antebellum South, not rational people in 2016.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#272

Post by st3v3r »

ElComradio wrote: post #213
Steuard wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.

If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?

I would ask why the hell you're presenting such a rare and convoluted scenario as something that we should be treating like the norm.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#273

Post by stcredzero »

ownagefool wrote: post #215
stcredzero wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually ended up asking her what was going on, specifically, "Am I bad at taking hints?" At that point, I should think a simple yes would have done fine. Making someone feel like a rapist for believing what is said or failing to correctly second guess is just weird and oppressive in itself.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do? Sure, some of us, like some woman, don't really care and will just shut it down, but many of us would just make an excuse so we're not outright rude. Either way, learn by being told, or learn by using empathy, if she doesn't counter offer it was a no. Once you've had your 3rd no, you're that creepy guy fyi.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do?

I'd give a straight-forward answer to a fellow adult, assuming she or he will take it in a rational and mature fashion. I certainly wouldn't say anything that could be confused on the surface with, "I would, but I can't."

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#274

Post by saalweachter »

vkou wrote: post #85
ElComradio wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.

Eh, I think restraint beyond "don't ask someone out five times, like a creep" is called for. I don't know of you've ever had anything ... distinctive about your appearance -- really thick glasses, unusually tall or short, uncommon facial hair style, hypnotic voice -- but attention, even non-creepy compliments ("your beard is awesome, can I touch it?") get really draining after awhile. Each individual's interest isn't a problem, it's the never-ending trickle that just wears away at you.

It's not just that someone might have to deal with an overwhelming amount of unwanted interest from a single person, but that the aggregated polite inquiries from dozens or hundreds of interested coworkers and colleagues could add up to something overwhelming. It's like littering.

So while being in a relationship with a co-worker may be fine, starting a relationship with a co-worker is tricky. It's like why you shouldn't hit on wait staff or flight attendants: they are there because it is there job. Your co-workers come into work every day for the same reason.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#275

Post by grillvogel »

home_boi wrote: post #267
Declanomous wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looki…

On the flip side, you will see exactly what you are looking for.

...and right on cue we have this guy

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#276

Post by qb45 »

scott_s wrote: post #236
oldmanjay wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can define anything to be anything when you're in the outrage porn business, but unrealistic descriptions meant to stoke emotion don't help to solve actual problems, they just make for more outrage porn.

You're implying that the US government is in the "outrage porn business".

Not the gov but you.

The paragraph you quoted says "harassment doesn't have to be of sexual nature" and you are using it to support the claim that "sexual harassment doesn't have to be of sexual nature".

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#277

Post by nikolay »

arcticfox wrote: post #227
nikolay wrote: post #224

Maybe in America... where people (which includes scientists) don't really have a social life. Anyway, if America becomes too hostile for scientists, I'll be happy if Europe and Russia become more attractive to people who don't want deal with bullshit and lawyers.

Most Americans don't really have a social life? News to me...

We've brought over the years more than 30 developers from Eastern Europe some 8 years ago here in Southern California. Nobody wanted to stay for more than 3-6 months even though they got better pay here and no expenses to worry about - company lunches and dinners, nice company cars, nice spacious company houses, etc. On the contrary, when they go back to Western and Central Europe to work for clients, they didn't want to leave!

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#278

Post by scott_s »

qb45 wrote: post #276
scott_s wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that the US government is in the "outrage porn business".

Not the gov but you. The paragraph you quoted says "harassment doesn't have to be of sexual nature" and you are using it to support the claim that "sexual harassment doesn't have to be of sexual nature".

And that paragraph is under the title "Sexual Harassment". It is clear to me that when they say "harassment", they mean "sexual harassment". Otherwise, the sentence would not be under that title. You're free to disagree, but your disagreement has no bearing on the laws we operate under. (Assuming you are in the US.)

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#279

Post by rokhayakebe »

scott_s wrote: post #157
stcredzero wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

I would not call it a "weird disconnect". It's just very awkward to give a flat-out "No" when asked out, even when the two people are not coworkers. When it comes to asking someone out, there are three answers: Yes; Yes in principle, but I'm not available then, how about next Tuesday?; all other answers are No. She was probably frustrated that you weren't picking up on this, and probably did feel uncomfortable that s…

Honestly everybody would win if guys and girls told the other person "I am flattered, but I am not available." It may hurt a little in the moment (because ego), but short/mid/long run you always thank them for saving you time.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#280

Post by philovivero »

babygoat wrote: post #249
woodman wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing an assault as sexual harassment is ridiculous. That is like describing a murder as impolite driving... that resulted in the flattening of a person who you happened to want dead. We are talking about different things here, and conflating them isn't going to help anybody.

It sounds like you want a separate designation for inappropriate comments. Just fucking stop.

Heh. I love how online discussions go from people talking past each other to... "wat."

I'm struggling to think what this comment even means in the context of the broader discussion. All I know is it makes me laugh out loud.

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