For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare • Hacker News Board

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#261

Post by scott_s » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #253

scott_s wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is only "yes in principle" if they counter-offer with a specific date. Otherwise it's no. These are standard social-norms, not specific to work. Asking someone out is stressful, but being asked out is also stressful. I think it's unreasonable to assume that people who are being asked out should automatically have to assume the awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections. Once you learn these…

The fact that trying to sound like "yes in principle" while not satisfying that in a detail is just weird on the face of it. If it's a social norm, it's an illogical and out of whack social norm. Grown women are just as rational and emotionally tough as men. If you claim the task of saying no is too much for them, I don't buy it. I think it's telling that in contexts where consensuality is even more immediately criti…

The goal is not to sound like "yes in principle" because they usually don't say yes, they typically say "Oh, I can't, I'm busy, I have to meet a friend for dinner".

I have also been gender neutral in my pronouns because I'm a guy, I've been asked out by women I did not want to go out with, and it was awkward, and it would have felt worse to just say a simple "No, I'm not interested". But she picked up on that just fine. My point is that there really isn't much second-guessing required. If they say yes, then you're good. If they counter-offer with a different time, you're still good. If they say anything else, that's no.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#262

Post by fweespee_ch » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #243

fweespee_ch wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty strong, even in terms of your analysis. You do understand the probability of the strongest hire in 12 separate rolls of the die being female and asian is absurdly small right? We are talking thousandths of a percentage point here. The odds of that being a "natural" distribution is absurd. Similarly, I know from one of them that he has engaged in the sort of sexual harassment behavior I'd expect from…

You do understand the probability of the strongest hire in 12 separate rolls of the die being female and asian is absurdly small right? We are talking thousandths of a percentage point here. The odds of that being a "natural" distribution is absurd. There are a bunch of places that hire out of whack to the natural distribution of the population. If one of them mentioned sexual harassment That's much stronger evidence…

> That's much stronger evidence in combination. But I think it's weird you led with the population distribution in your account, not the reported behavior.

I wasn't expecting someone to argue that it was reasonable to have a homogeneous population of hires on a gender/race axis.

> There are a bunch of places that hire out of whack to the natural distribution of the population.

I've never encountered one IRL that was homogeneous of a female minority hired by a white male.

Can you provide examples of this happening on the scale you state?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#263

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

ghostcat wrote: post #257

stcredzero wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer. On what basis should men be treated by-default as if they are, "the type that won't take no for an answer?" Wouldn't it be parsimonious to try the "no" and see what happens, in that case? How about we're all treated as emotionally secure, professional, rationa…

I reiterate: "I wish I could just say "no", because most men would be civil and bow out and appreciate the straightforwardness. But I have no way to know in advance which kind of person any given guy is going to be." It's erring on the side of caution because I fear for my personal safety. I wish it weren't this way, but surely you can empathize with a desire to protect oneself, particularly given negative experience…

I can empathize, which is why I can also empathize with being "profiled." I know that from both sides. I also know what it's like to be objectified as an emblem or symbol or any number of things less than human. However, the long term and just solution to prejudice can't be more prejudice. Social norms which "profile" me based on an attribute I was born with can't be socially just.

I also have no way of knowing in advance which white person is going to attack or denigrate me next. (Of all those incidents in my life, it is that "group" which is most prevalent.) Should I interact in a way which assumes any of them might at any time?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#264

Post by eevilspock » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

goodcanadian wrote: post #96

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

> she has suffered the occasional subtle discrimination

That's what we like to tell ourselves. Philosopher George Yancy:

What if I told you that I’m sexist? Well, I am. Yes. I said it and I mean just that. I have watched my male students squirm in their seats when I’ve asked them to identify and talk about their sexism. There are few men, I suspect, who would say that they are sexists, and even fewer would admit that their sexism actually oppresses women. Certainly not publicly, as I’ve just done. No taking it back now.

To make things worse, I’m an academic, a philosopher. I’m supposed to be one of the “enlightened” ones. Surely, we are beyond being sexists.

Yet, I refuse to remain a prisoner of the lies that we men like to tell ourselves — that we are beyond the messiness of sexism and male patriarchy, that we don’t oppress women. Let me clarify. This doesn’t mean that I intentionally hate women or that I desire to oppress them. It means that despite my best intentions, I perpetuate sexism every day of my life.

As a sexist, I have failed women. I have failed to speak out when I should have. I have failed to engage critically and extensively their pain and suffering in my writing. I have failed to transcend the rigidity of gender roles in my own life. I have failed to challenge those poisonous assumptions that women are “inferior” to men or to speak out loudly in the company of male philosophers who believe that feminist philosophy is just a nonphilosophical fad. I have been complicit with, and have allowed myself to be seduced by, a country that makes billions of dollars from sexually objectifying women, from pornography, commercials, video games, to Hollywood movies. I am not innocent.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-a...

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#265

Post by semi-extrinsic » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #85

ElComradio wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.

> Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.

Yet this behavior is romanticised is popular culture, and has been from the dawn of time up to and including the present: Oddyseus and Helen of Troy, Shakespeare's "The taming of the shrew", tons of Fred Astaire movies, as well as modern movies like "Ghost", "Life is beautiful", "Chasing Amy", TV shows like "Sex and the city"... I could go on. Lucikly I don't need to, since TVtropes has a site dedicated to this character (the "dogged nice guy"). And note that many of these are targeted at, and very popular with, women (who are usually at the receiving end of the initially-unwarranted attention). Apparently this behaviour can walk a thin line between illegal and very very romantic.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#266

Post by privong » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #255

Pretty obvious from looking at the points and age of this posting that some people have flagged it. I hope some admins are considering removing those flags. Users who flag a post like this shouldn't really have flagging privs.

> Users who flag a post like this shouldn't really have flagging privs.

I agree with you that the article is focused on an important topic (and I did not flag it), but I don't think you can easily make that one-to-one link between article flagging and poor judgment (or what ever negative trait would justify revoking of flagging privileges). People may have flagged the article because of some issue they had with the accuracy of the text (though it all seemed accurate to me). Or maybe they flagged it because this topic has received some attention previously on HN and the flaggers thought this article didn't bring any new information to the discussion (plausible, since most of the specific cases discussed were already in the news). There could be multiple reasons for flagging this article, not all of which are objectionable.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#267

Post by home_boi » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

Declanomous wrote: post #238

goodcanadian wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astro…

I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looki…

On the flip side, you will see exactly what you are looking for.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#268

Post by grahamburger » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to make a habit of publicly recognizing good work that I see from any one in the company, and again I make an extra effort to recognize the work done by those in marginalized classes.

I'm also very choosy in general about who I make friends with, or who I interact with on anything other than a professional level. As a rule, I don't interact socially with women in the workplace. The primary reason is that it's more important to me to not be labelled a sexual predator / harasser than it is to have female friends. (I am married, but I acted basically the same at work when I was single.) There are just too many ambiguities in what is considered sexual harassment for me to feel comfortable putting my reputation on that line.

For example, it's not at all uncommon for me to comment to a male co-worker who comes in to work dressed up more than usual 'looking sharp, man!' or something along those lines. Would that be sexual harassment if I said that to a woman? Probably not on the face of it, but what if she has just (unbeknownst to me) endured harassment from another co-worker about her looks - then I could see my comment adding to the fire. Or what if I without thinking said something that implied that her dress would make her a more valuable employee or help her get that promotion or whatever. So, I just avoid it altogether. I recognize that my position may keep me from being part of the problem but also prevents me from being a part of the solution because I won't be aware of problems or able to offer meaningful support. I'm not sure what else to do.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#269

Post by 794CD01 » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #114

ceejayoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. The article notes various reasons for this. It gets covered up, abusers are generally cautious about where/when they do it, some people don't perceive it as abuse, etc. Take Bill Cosby as an example. Decades of consistent reports of behavior (to the point where 30 Rock was making pointed jokes about it years ago), dozens of victims, legal settlements, a…

> Bill Cosby as an example. Rich and wealthy people can cover up a lot. See Michael Jackson. It doesn't mean that child abuse is rampant among musicians. I also work in IT and I share the GP question. If it's as rampant as some articles and people make it out to be then the harassers are getting very good at covering it up.

Unfortunately, child abuse is, in fact, rampant among musicians. Want to try a different argument?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#270

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

fweespee_ch wrote: post #262

stcredzero wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand the probability of the strongest hire in 12 separate rolls of the die being female and asian is absurdly small right? We are talking thousandths of a percentage point here. The odds of that being a "natural" distribution is absurd. There are a bunch of places that hire out of whack to the natural distribution of the population. If one of them mentioned sexual harassment That's much stronger evidence…

> That's much stronger evidence in combination. But I think it's weird you led with the population distribution in your account, not the reported behavior. I wasn't expecting someone to argue that it was reasonable to have a homogeneous population of hires on a gender/race axis. > There are a bunch of places that hire out of whack to the natural distribution of the population. I've never encountered one IRL that was…

Can you provide examples of this happening on the scale you state?

I find it telling that you were assuming I was talking about female minorities. Reread.