Live data from Hacker News

For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

broadly.vice.com

361–370 of 402 posts

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#361

I've been a prof: Academics is awash in non-objective pushing and shoving that, yes, affects careers. In academics, even high end universities, a lot of the nasty behavior of middle school is still alive and well. Added to that is grown up politics, professional jealousy, professional competition with sabotage, and, also, no doubt, sexual harassment as in the OP. I can't speak first hand about sexual harassment becau…

I think you intended for your writing to be punchy, but it ended up just being hard to follow. I'll pick a passage at random:

> Then she kept saying she was "looking for sex". Gee, those women were trying to harass me sexually? No, I didn't have any "nightmares"!

Is your second sentence actually a question? It sounds more like a statement that was accidentally punctuated with a question mark rather than a full stop or an exclamation point.

Your third sentence doesn't make sense. Who said anything about nightmares? And why is "nightmares" in quotation marks? Is it supposed to be a euphemism for something else?

Overall, I give your comment a 3/10 in terms of readability. Try tightening it up, and make sure that the sentences you're writing actually make sense and are contextually appropriate.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#362

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

I wonder where I can read about frank male experiences in a female-dominated field, such as nursing, or teaching elementary school.

I've got an anecdote!

Back in college, I worked a part-time job caring for high-functioning individuals with developmental disabilities, in a home health care environment. There was probably one male for every twenty females on staff.

There was an incident where I was working overnight and my manager hadn't filled prescriptions during her day shift (she was the only one with the authority to do so). One of the residents, having not received their medication at the usual time, was having panic attacks. The situation elevated to the point of my having to call paramedics.

I'd followed the chain-of-command. First, I tried contacting my co-workers, but they couldn't help. Next, I called my manager, but she ignored the calls. Then, I tried her supervisor (a man), and he was so angry about a lowly night worker contacting him during off-hours that I got nowhere. This all happened over hours, not minutes; the resident had become violent and was quite ill (not sure if it was withdrawals, anxiety, or both). I was out of options, so I called the hospital.

The next day, I arrived at work where my manager, her boss, and someone from HR, were waiting for me in the office. They had drawn up paperwork outlining the reason for my dismissal. It was sexual harassment. Apparently, my manager ignored my calls because I was infatuated with her and called constantly. The whole fiasco the night before was just my way of getting her attention.

I had never once contacted her at home. I did not like her on a personal level, let alone find her attractive. I was already in a happy/healthy relationship (15 years later, I'm still in that relationship).

This event ruined me emotionally, and was one of the worst experiences of my life. The looks people gave me that day made me want to crawl into a hole and die, I didn't want to leave the house for months.

Another kicker is that I was the only person in the entire company that was licensed to distribute and handle medication; a qualification that I'd picked up at a previous job, that had helped me land this position. In the eyes of the state, my manager should never have been in charge of handling prescriptions. The rabbit hole deepens.

About a year later, I heard through the grape-vine that my old manager had been promoted to a senior administrative position.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#363

I investigated Vice for over six months for a book. Their media is so bad I regularly call it a liar's cult. It should be stated that Vice has no fact-checking process. They also rarely issue corrections. Read everything from them with caution. Here is an article where I fact-checked two documentaries with links to other fact checks. https://notvice.com/fact-checking-vice-a-fiction-2d482100116...

Ok, but for this story Vice is mostly recycling facts and stories reported elsewhere. It's a fact that Geoff Marcy was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that Christian Ott was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that women scientists are speaking on the record about these things. So I don't see how your comment is relevant to the article we're discussing.

Did the article really describe a 'constant nightmare' or was the article more an example of anectdata.

I would argue that demonizing STEM fields with sensational language does more harm than good.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these scenarios are possible but often they are presented as a certainty. This speaks more towards fears and feelings; I'd be interested to see studies that claim most office romances turn out badly. People are being trained to make these leaps even if there are no facts to back them up. You might _feel_ your boss is treating you differently because she asked you out, but should we all adjust behavior to accom…

It feels to me like you're conflating general "office romances" with the more narrow "supervisor/employee romances". I've been focused entirely on the latter (which fits the main topic here: senior faculty members pursuing sexual or romantic relationships with students, often in their own labs). My reason for preferring an outright ban on supervisor/employee relationships is that they can have nasty effects on the en…

I understand; even in the case of "power imbalance" relationships, I'm still asking the question: What is the evidence these are primarily negative relationships for the participants?

When you read about these, the authors almost exclusively present it as the person in the dominant position somehow taking advantage of the other. Are you equal, though, in your condemnation of e.g. the flirty student successfully seducing her professor? This happens. Is your message to her that she has no idea what she is doing, and that she's setting back gender equality by doing so? The answer is usually dodged because admitting the situation happens (both participants being into it) pollutes the desired narrative- That one partner has no agency by dint of the power imbalance.

re: your 2nd paragraph, can you provide some links? You present it as common knowledge. What's the actual incidence of negative outcomes? If it's, say, 15%, that means 85% have positive outcomes, and you want to tell those people to go pound sand. I find that unreasonable.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#365
post #28
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy wore the shirt to a celebration after working with those co-workers for 10 years. It wasn't intended to look "professional" and I'm pretty sure none of those co-workers were offended. The reason the shirt was a bad idea is that it was easily misinterpreted by people watching the press conference. Edit: I didn't see it at the time, but this article exactly reflects my perspective on the thing. http://www.theat…

I do not know much about their workplace but I think you are assuming too much when you say you are sure his co-workers were just fine with it. I worked in academia and startups all my life so I am used to seeing casual shirts being worn but that was way too much. We do not hang that kind of pictures around the office. We do not want people to look at that kind of pictures in the office. Not just in the office also i…

> that kind of pictures

Pictures of clothed women are not offensive unless you're a religious fundamentalist.

He has tattoos of sexy women, should he wear a burka to spare your feelings?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so they may well be unaware of how it would be percieved by his colleagues when worn in this context. Wasn't the controversy more about how the shirt was perceived by randos on twitter, not by his colleagues?

Yes, rando astrophysicists on twitter: https://twitter.com/astrokatie/status/532509765989965824

Was that person his colleague?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but for this story Vice is mostly recycling facts and stories reported elsewhere. It's a fact that Geoff Marcy was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that Christian Ott was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that women scientists are speaking on the record about these things. So I don't see how your comment is relevant to the article we're discussing.

Did the article really describe a 'constant nightmare' or was the article more an example of anectdata. I would argue that demonizing STEM fields with sensational language does more harm than good.

I don't think Vice has a monopoly on clickbait headlines.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#369

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

You worry about "putting your reputation on the line" but if you're really behaving like this you probably already got a reputation of somebody who has a problem with women. It will hurt your career in the end.

So maybe you don't talk about yourself at work, have no doubt that others talk about you.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual harassment is harassment. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's literally true. Politely asking a peer out on a date, ONCE, is not harassment. Even though it might be a little uncomfortable in the moment, that can pass if everyone acts professionally regardless of the outcome. Examples of harassment include: - asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" - propositioning someone fo…

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

You know, you sometimes say really brilliant and insightful things, like this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11520762

And then you say something like the above and I shake my head and wonder how both sentiments can be expressed by the exact same person. Do you not see how your other comment applies to the situation that you find personally frustrating? Do you not see how unreasonable it is to expect all women to just give a straight up "no" instead of a polite excuse?

I am pretty forthright and I find that just straight up telling men "no" is all kinds of problematic. If just saying "no" worked and solved my problems, wow, that would be heaven.

Post reply on HN