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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#251

Post by dominotw »

Declanomous wrote: post #238
goodcanadian wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astro…

I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looki…

> wolf-whistles on the street.

What do you think can be done to tackle this?

One of the my buddies got punched and called a terrorist on public transit laste year. He reported it to public transit authority but they ignored it :\

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#252

Post by mhurron »

Retric wrote: post #65
mhurron wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there are people that act just fine to people they believe are capable or otherwise worthy who are total assholes to those they deem unworthy of their time/effort/care. Yes sexism really exists and that line of worthiness/unworthiness may be drawn at your genitals.

In many cases this is not pure sexism. Often people have a few 'exceptions' for some highly competent people. In many cases it's closer to hazing where people can be incredibly nasty to people they think are acceptable targets. And then after a transition treat as part of their inner circle. Not that I think either are acceptable, but it's important to try and understand behaviors you want to change.

I did say 'may', and I said that for a reason.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#253

Post by stcredzero »

scott_s wrote: post #208
stcredzero wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If sounding like "yes in principle" is the goal of your speech, then how can one reasonably expect to feel violated when that speech is taken as "yes in principle?" I like "no means no" as a principle. I wish everyone stood up boldly for the right to say "no." Do this by boldly saying no. The right to say yes but really mean no is something else entirely, and is corrosive to the right to say no.

The answer is only "yes in principle" if they counter-offer with a specific date. Otherwise it's no. These are standard social-norms, not specific to work. Asking someone out is stressful, but being asked out is also stressful. I think it's unreasonable to assume that people who are being asked out should automatically have to assume the awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections. Once you learn these…

The fact that trying to sound like "yes in principle" while not satisfying that in a detail is just weird on the face of it. If it's a social norm, it's an illogical and out of whack social norm. Grown women are just as rational and emotionally tough as men. If you claim the task of saying no is too much for them, I don't buy it.

I think it's telling that in contexts where consensuality is even more immediately critical, the social norm is for direct and clear communication.

awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections

It's unreasonable for people to assume the awkward social burden of subtle second-guessing, with the consequence of being labeled as a deviant if you don't. How is that any less unpleasant and corrosive than women having to second guess how they dress, or be thought of as a sexual target? Both of these situations needlessly eschew clear communications for illogical reasons, and hold starkly severe consequences for not adhering to them -- way out of whack with the cost/benefit analysis of avoiding a little "awkwardness."

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#254

Post by stcredzero »

ghostcat wrote: post #240
jbmorgado wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making it sound like it's actually his fault that he kept asking until she actually gave a definite answer. Worst than that, some people would call that harassment and chastise me and others for victim blaming, just stating a simple fact: She should have said no. I wonder how many of these cases get into the statistics about harassment when it should just be considered simple human interaction up to the point…

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer. Once I gave a guy a simple-but-polite "no" in college, and he responded with harassing emails/repeated phone calls/stalking/etc for months. Once during an internship, a superior cornered me in my office after-hours, blocking my exit and declaring his love for…

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer.

On what basis should men be treated by-default as if they are, "the type that won't take no for an answer?" Wouldn't it be parsimonious to try the "no" and see what happens, in that case? How about we're all treated as emotionally secure, professional, rational beings until we show otherwise?

But I have no way to know in advance which kind of person any given guy is going to be.

The thing about growing up where you are literally one of only a dozen asians for a 50 mile radius, is that the sociopath racists sometimes come out of the woodwork -- sometimes even to be your "friend" then really let you have it when the time is right. That doesn't entitle me to automatically assume everyone is going to be one of those jerks. Nor would that be a productive stance to take.

How about some "evidence based" life in principle, not just when it suits one's agenda? I should be treated with according to my deeds and evidence of my character. Not according to statistics attached to an attribute I was born with.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#256

Post by clevernickname »

dagw wrote: post #7
sqldba wrote: post #4

It sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up with their idiotic demands and abuse. So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealin…

Or are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women? My friend's ex-boss was like that. All the guys at the company thought he was the best boss ever and all the women hated him with a passion.

The opposite absolutely exists. I've had female bosses, professors, etc. that all the women loved and admired, while all the men agreed she was out to get them.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#257

Post by ghostcat »

stcredzero wrote: post #254
ghostcat wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer. Once I gave a guy a simple-but-polite "no" in college, and he responded with harassing emails/repeated phone calls/stalking/etc for months. Once during an internship, a superior cornered me in my office after-hours, blocking my exit and declaring his love for…

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer. On what basis should men be treated by-default as if they are, "the type that won't take no for an answer?" Wouldn't it be parsimonious to try the "no" and see what happens, in that case? How about we're all treated as emotionally secure, professional, rationa…

I reiterate:

"I wish I could just say "no", because most men would be civil and bow out and appreciate the straightforwardness. But I have no way to know in advance which kind of person any given guy is going to be."

It's erring on the side of caution because I fear for my personal safety. I wish it weren't this way, but surely you can empathize with a desire to protect oneself, particularly given negative experiences in the past?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#258

Post by snowwrestler »

I_HALF_CATS wrote: post #134

I investigated Vice for over six months for a book. Their media is so bad I regularly call it a liar's cult. It should be stated that Vice has no fact-checking process. They also rarely issue corrections. Read everything from them with caution. Here is an article where I fact-checked two documentaries with links to other fact checks. https://notvice.com/fact-checking-vice-a-fiction-2d482100116...

Ok, but for this story Vice is mostly recycling facts and stories reported elsewhere. It's a fact that Geoff Marcy was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that Christian Ott was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that women scientists are speaking on the record about these things.

So I don't see how your comment is relevant to the article we're discussing.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#259

Post by matt4077 »

goodcanadian wrote: post #96

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

It's hard to notice when there's so few women in a given field. The victims also often don't have an interest in publicizing incidents - most communities are small and you can't risk burning bridges.

I'd also guess the nature of injustices has changed: since everyone has gotten the message by now, they avoid the prototypical sexist comments in groups (not entirely, though. PIs with tenure have little reason to change and I've exchanged looks of disbelieve with colleagues on more than one occasion).

And yet people are getting annoyed by attempts to change the situation. Sometimes, I even understand their frustration with some of the more misguided ideas of postmodern feminism. What's more surprising is the level of hate people can muster for so-called 'swj twitter-activists etc' considering the minimal inconveniences they inflict – I vividly remember the absolute despair a good friend (smart, well-educated, ambitious but conscientious) experienced when she realized that she would never have a chance of advancement in the rather conservative profession she had chosen. As in: the boss-boss told her point-blank 'I know everyone in this business and you're never get anywhere as long as I'm alive. Why don't you go into nursing?'.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#260

Post by Chris2048 »

homogeneous wrote: post #177
mooseburger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dick jokes in the workplace are ok. Serious question, why wouldn't they be?

I think keeping jokes about genitalia and other sexually explicit topics out of the workplace is a pretty reasonable line to draw. The problem isn't that dick jokes are categorically offensive, rather, the problem arises because, when this type of behavior is permitted, there is always someone lacking social intelligence or boundaries who takes it way too far and creates a complicated ambiguity regarding what type of…

Make this a rule : "no dick jokes at work",

Watch as the scope of what constitutes 'work' creep.

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