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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

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Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#131

Post by vmorgulis »

ansible wrote: post #83
vmorgulis wrote: post #55

"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that. Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of…

Whatever you want to call the current form of government in western societies, our countries are still ruled by the elite for their own benefit. That is how it has been, and how it will likely continue to be. Democratic institutions and transparency, however, provide an important safety valve for the smooth functioning of society. They are important tools to keep the elites in check. This is important for elites and…

> Elites should understand (though some apparently don't) that a stable society benefits them as much as anyone. What good is your wealth if you have to spend a lot of it on security? The stress isn't worth it.

It doesn't work like that. A lot of people do their best (including in politics in current governments).

If they fell too much, they will be replaced by another group (probably more progressist).

We can have a war between the two phases (in Europe). Europe is not stable anymore.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#132

Post by coldtea »

deif wrote: post #7

Note that TTIP still has to be agreed upon by the EU Parliament. Personally I don't really care what the lobbyists are writing in secret. At some point they have to present to the EUP (where we actually have representation) and they have been very consistent at shutting down the crap that the corporations try to get through. It's not that secret. It's secret while they work on it, sure, but I've watched countless deb…

>I still have faith that Parliament can protect us

Well, the EU Parliament never did much for the fact that important decisions in the eurozone are taken by non-elected bureucrats (e.g. the EC) or unofficial and un-accountable bodies (the "eurogroup").

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#133

Post by coldtea »

neffy wrote: post #124
zeveb wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature That should be nothing new, since the EU has been doing that for ages. Just ask the Britons who would prefer to continue using their traditional measures instead of French measures. Just ask those European states whose people would prefer to retain capital punishment.

Let me just speak on behalf of all English schoolchildren educated after that blessed year 1971 when decimalisation was introduced. Oh thank God that we don't have to use those bloody traditional measures any more. Best, idea, ever! Have you any idea what it's like to try and do base 12 and base 16 calculations when you're 10? Without a calculator?? Presumably there's some alternate universe out there where the Briti…

His point is valid (people should be governed in the way that the want, not as some body millions of miles away from the decides), but the examples are the worst ever.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#134

Post by coldtea »

jokoon wrote: post #35

Sometimes I just want to think those treaties' function is to curtail multinationals, so that countries can be able to effectively organize themselves against those corporations who have become hard to regulate in a context of globalization. So if you want to successfully do it, you have to keep as many people in the dark, since I also believe those big companies have a tremendous influence on politicians. Maybe it's…

>Sometimes I just want to think those treaties' function is to curtail multinationals, so that countries can be able to effectively organize themselves against those corporations who have become hard to regulate in a context of globalization.

Huh? Those treaties are the wet dream of multinationals and all about further "globalization" (of private interests).

That's the very reason they are kept closed.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#135

Post by logfromblammo »

IanCal wrote: post #50
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should pass an emergency law that requires all documents containing suggested content for national legislation be published in full, made available to the public via government websites (or national equivalents). Wording not published could not be included in any legislation. Anything short of that makes a mockery of the idea that we have any sort of democracy. A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read…

> A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read the treaties before they are ratified, what a ridiculous perversion of a notion that is. That would be ridiculous, but TTIP will be published when people agree on what it should be, then it'll be voted on. See here: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/pr... When you think "X is ridiculous" consider that maybe X is not actually true.

As an American, I am very familiar with the feeling of disenfranchisement I get every elections cycle. The two major parties field a wide variety of candidates, and methodically weed out all of the ones for which I have even an inkling of affinity. In the end, I am left with a choice between the stupid douche and the turd sandwich. I still technically have a choice, but my options have been severely curtailed, down to the point where the best selection criterion is which one makes me less nauseous.

In this case, the electorate is left with a choice between getting all of the multiparty treaty or none of it.

The bread is nice and springy, sliced to just the right thickness. The lettuce, tomato, and onion are all delicious and salubrious. The sauce is tangy, and a tiny bit sweet. But the turd inside is vile, odorous, and steaming. And you get the bill, and find that you already paid $100 for that sandwich, whether you eat it or not.

Now, had the public been given a chance to participate in the negotiations and debate, someone might have suggested, "Hey, how about we make a sandwich that doesn't have a giant, steaming turd in it?" And the designated negotiators look up, twitch their clubbed antennae, flex their mouth-parts in astonishment and horror, and brush down their shiny black carapaces with the knobby combs on their foremost pair of legs. Then they respond, "But the ball of dung is the only essential part of the whole sandwich!"

And that's when you realize that the world is run by dung beetles 1.8m long, who have absolutely zero understanding about why we humans don't just squeal with delight and scarf down the poop, with gusto, whenever it is handed to us.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#136

Post by vmorgulis »

cubano wrote: post #69
vmorgulis wrote: post #55

"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that. Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of…

Well don't forget the idea of direct democracy where we leverage modern IT and allow the people to vote directly on issues, eliminating the need for representatives whom are, of course, often corrupted by monied interests. Many movements and initiatives currently exist promoting this method of government[1] [1] http://aceproject.org/ace-en/focus/direct-democracy/citizen-...

I'm not against democracy. It's just a citation from Wikipedia.

I think like Churchill that it's the best political system we've tried. You can change the government without a revolution. It's not so bad.

It think for technical problems, you're right, democracy and debates can help a lot to distinguish the good choice.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#137

Post by ArbitraryHobo »

Aoyagi wrote: post #20
kevindeasis wrote: post #13

Hey smart folks, How does TTIP affect small business, and startups in Australia-Canda-America-Asia? How does TTIP affect small business, and startups in the Pacifics?

I don't think it has any direct affect on those areas. Australasia has TPP, Canada has NAFTA.

Canada signed the TPP too. Didn't want to be left out and all that...

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#138

Post by TheLogothete »

wfo wrote: post #129
Loughla wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice th…

If you have a proposoal that is so vulnerable and weak that it can't handle being in the public eye, or (in this case) the process that crafts it ensures it is so obviously corrupt and blatantly anti-citizen, then it shouldn't ever be allowed to become law. The bill being "torn to shreds" is a feature, not a bug -- the citizenry of every involved country would all be a lot better off if the TPP and TTIP were subject…

I don't think you've read the comments you are replying to.

Negotiators make proposals which might seem outrageous. Nobody thinks they will get drafted. It is a step towards getting a concession from the opposing side. Just like in the movies. One side starts at 4000, the other at 1,000 and they meet at 2,500.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#139

Post by Loughla »

eis wrote: post #123
Loughla wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice th…

So? Let the publicity stunts happen. You don't have to pay too much attention to them. You can take valid critizism on board. Look, the thing has to be made public to be voted upon anyways and at that point the small time poltician with a hard-on as you put it can also start his show. You shouldn't be afraid that some idiots talk crap about something you work on if you really believe in it. Just follow through and se…

This is not meant as an insult, really. You genuinely don't understand how politics works at all.

It's not just some idiot talking crap about something you're working on. This isn't a college project. It's someone putting your entire past, present, and future on television and the radio making false claims about you. It's someone making your personal information known publicly so you can receive threats. If you don't have the same dollars as the other guy, it's someone controlling the public narrative to paint you as Satan himself.

It's so much more in depth than taking valid criticism. YOU don't have to pay attention to them, as the person fronting the bill. But the 300,000,000 other people in the US will.

And then, right or wrong, good or bad, you lose. Again, not an insult, but yours is an unbelievably naive view of how politics works.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#140

Post by TheLogothete »

Silhouette wrote: post #130
TheLogothete wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…

This "negotiations must be secret to work" principle seems an odd argument to make. In the UK, for example, our national laws go through several stages of development in Parliament. Over the course of many months or years there will often be thousands of comments contributed by MPs, Lords, civil servants, independent subject matter experts, special interest groups, and the general public. There are no draconian restr…

You are comparing domestic and international legislation...
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