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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

truepublica.org.uk

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Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#121

Post by bediger4000 »

TheLogothete wrote: post #80
sdoering wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not. If I can argue as a leading party, that my populous would never consent to this or that feature of the treaty, I gain enormous leverage. And seen another way. If any majority of people inside a democracy does not want to have a feature it is the politicians job to listen to the people and do their bidding. Politicians are there to server the people not to rule them.

You have time for that. After the draft is published. People are saying that this is NEGOTIATED in private. Which is how negotiations work. What will be proposed as a draft depends on many variables. Accepting the draft and making it into laws takes many steps, the final one being approval from every member's parliament.

We don't have time for that in the USA, for the TPP, which seems analogous to the TTIP. Our "representatives" will get one vote, up or down, on the entire TPP, no debate. During TPP "negotiations", corporations got access to the drafts. It wasn't negotiated strictly in private. Corporations are the only stakeholders, and US citizens have had zero say.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#122

Post by bitwize »

abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

.... in a basement, in a bathroom, past a sign that says "beware of the leopard".

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#123

Post by eis »

Loughla wrote: post #91
eis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can shred something to pieces then maybe it shouldn't be signed? And if it was good then they wouldn't be able to shred it to pieces. Sounds like you'd be afraid of public discourse.

That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice th…

So? Let the publicity stunts happen. You don't have to pay too much attention to them. You can take valid critizism on board.

Look, the thing has to be made public to be voted upon anyways and at that point the small time poltician with a hard-on as you put it can also start his show.

You shouldn't be afraid that some idiots talk crap about something you work on if you really believe in it. Just follow through and see if it gets public support in the end or not.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#124

Post by neffy »

zeveb wrote: post #110
abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

> It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature That should be nothing new, since the EU has been doing that for ages. Just ask the Britons who would prefer to continue using their traditional measures instead of French measures. Just ask those European states whose people would prefer to retain capital punishment.

Let me just speak on behalf of all English schoolchildren educated after that blessed year 1971 when decimalisation was introduced.

Oh thank God that we don't have to use those bloody traditional measures any more. Best, idea, ever! Have you any idea what it's like to try and do base 12 and base 16 calculations when you're 10? Without a calculator??

Presumably there's some alternate universe out there where the British Empire still rules the globe, and the world was forced to convert to imperial - in that universe you have a legitimate complaint. Not in this one.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#125

Post by jandrese »

germanier wrote: post #53
abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

This is kind of like tying a guy to a stake above a fire pit and telling them "Don't worry, I might not light the tinder at your feet with this flaming torch I'm holding. Certainly don't try to do anything about it now because this is the way these things work. I'm sure you'll be just fine in the end."

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#126

Post by jandrese »

izacus wrote: post #103
IanCal wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, we just found out that 6/7 of our countries MEP's in Parliament voted for TTIP without even reading it. Voted for a not-yet negotiated trade agreement? Are you sure you've not misunderstood this? http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/pr...

I was talking about the preliminary resolution on 9. Jul. 2015. While that indeed wasn't a final voting, I have still little hope that the result will be any different.

What hope do you really have? All of the corporate interests are aligned on this and they are the ones that own the representatives.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#127

Post by TheLogothete »

eis wrote: post #123
Loughla wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice th…

So? Let the publicity stunts happen. You don't have to pay too much attention to them. You can take valid critizism on board. Look, the thing has to be made public to be voted upon anyways and at that point the small time poltician with a hard-on as you put it can also start his show. You shouldn't be afraid that some idiots talk crap about something you work on if you really believe in it. Just follow through and se…

You just completely ignored how the real world works. It might seem sound and logical in your head - and to be honest, it is - but it is just not how it works out in reality.

You seem to think we live in this perfect world where only rational things happen and everyone is well read and educated. Unfortunately, we do not and please open your eyes already. Thank you.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#128

Post by acqq »

jokoon wrote: post #120
acqq wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes I just want to think those treaties' function is to curtail multinationals It is exactly completely opposite. And documented many times over. Just google.

I don't think google always has answers to everything. If I look for conspiracy theories, I won't necessarily find information that disprove them.

If you can't differentiate or think critically you won't know whom to believe. But then nothing can help you.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#129

Post by wfo »

Loughla wrote: post #91
eis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can shred something to pieces then maybe it shouldn't be signed? And if it was good then they wouldn't be able to shred it to pieces. Sounds like you'd be afraid of public discourse.

That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice th…

If you have a proposoal that is so vulnerable and weak that it can't handle being in the public eye, or (in this case) the process that crafts it ensures it is so obviously corrupt and blatantly anti-citizen, then it shouldn't ever be allowed to become law.

The bill being "torn to shreds" is a feature, not a bug -- the citizenry of every involved country would all be a lot better off if the TPP and TTIP were subject to the same scrutiny as any other law and invariably torn to shreds.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#130

Post by Silhouette »

TheLogothete wrote: post #68
themartorana wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be to…

Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…

This "negotiations must be secret to work" principle seems an odd argument to make.

In the UK, for example, our national laws go through several stages of development in Parliament. Over the course of many months or years there will often be thousands of comments contributed by MPs, Lords, civil servants, independent subject matter experts, special interest groups, and the general public.

There are no draconian restrictions on seeing or discussing the work in progress of the kind we're talking about here. No-one is wearing tin foil hats. No-one is spending their entire working lifetime fending off crazy theories from everyone with half a clue.

And yet, as you say, stuff still gets done.

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