Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm skeptical about the existence of that kind of photographic memory.
It's rare but it does exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek
You'd have to find an MP with that same ability.
TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
31–40 of 208 posts
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
Believe TTIP is being pushed by the UK government and resisted by countries in Europe.
Wrong. UKIP and Labour hold the majority seats for the UK in the EUP and they're both against TTIP.
How would that stop the UK government from pushing this? The EUP does not control the UK government or the House of Commons.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#33It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…
This kind of procedure is clearly there to fight democracy. I think the TTIP should not be adopted whatever its content, just because of this non democratic procedure. The people who have initiate this procedure should be investigated. Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#34Note that TTIP still has to be agreed upon by the EU Parliament. Personally I don't really care what the lobbyists are writing in secret. At some point they have to present to the EUP (where we actually have representation) and they have been very consistent at shutting down the crap that the corporations try to get through. It's not that secret. It's secret while they work on it, sure, but I've watched countless deb…
"I still have faith that Parliament can protect us" Sure why not, they've done such a great job so far at protecting Europeans in general and Greeks in particular.
To be fair, there was some attempts in the parliament to protect the Greeks (at least, from some members).
It's only that, as everybody knows, the parliament shouldn't be involved in serious issues.
We have grow up people in charge of those things that know exactly what is convenient for us.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#35Sometimes I just want to think those treaties' function is to curtail multinationals, so that countries can be able to effectively organize themselves against those corporations who have become hard to regulate in a context of globalization.
So if you want to successfully do it, you have to keep as many people in the dark, since I also believe those big companies have a tremendous influence on politicians. Maybe it's just to let people negotiate in peace, without having to deal with noise you can see on meetings like the G20 or G8, and all the special interests knocking on your door. Maybe this deal is pure international politics, which is going beyond the scope of democracy (the world is not a democracy, last I checked).
We already have separation of church and state, maybe it's time to have separation of business and state? That's why I think it's easy to paint those treaties as A Bad Thing(tm), but I think it's more difficult to grasp the complexity of international politics intertwined with international trade.
Although I could be completely wrong, but I always tend to take things with a bigger grain of salt when it involves activists who can't really give me a clear reason on what X thing is bad.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#36It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…
They should send someone in who has a photographic memory. In two hours he/she can browse those 600 pages, and later someone else can type them out. And this may all be done for a good hourly fee.
They should pass an emergency law that requires all documents containing suggested content for national legislation be published in full, made available to the public via government websites (or national equivalents). Wording not published could not be included in any legislation.
Anything short of that makes a mockery of the idea that we have any sort of democracy. A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read the treaties before they are ratified, what a ridiculous perversion of a notion that is.
Of course the politicians involved could instead come out and say "this is how it is, we don't care about democracy; we're in charge and you can all put up with what we say". At least then you could respect their honesty.
Having to spy on people to discover details of legislation proposed for your own country, that's a dictatorship.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#37Note that TTIP still has to be agreed upon by the EU Parliament. Personally I don't really care what the lobbyists are writing in secret. At some point they have to present to the EUP (where we actually have representation) and they have been very consistent at shutting down the crap that the corporations try to get through. It's not that secret. It's secret while they work on it, sure, but I've watched countless deb…
Well, we just found out that 6/7 of our countries MEP's in Parliament voted for TTIP without even reading it. With no consultation or anything else. I have very low hopes that reason will prevail in this case.
Is there a link to support this?
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wrong. UKIP and Labour hold the majority seats for the UK in the EUP and they're both against TTIP.
How would that stop the UK government from pushing this? The EUP does not control the UK government or the House of Commons.
Well the UK government doesn't get a vote on TTIP... I mean it's a reason to not vote for a Brexit if anything since then they WOULD get a vote to secure a trade deal privately with the US if the UK left the EU.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#39It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…
This kind of procedure is clearly there to fight democracy. I think the TTIP should not be adopted whatever its content, just because of this non democratic procedure. The people who have initiate this procedure should be investigated. Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people.
> Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people.
I don't think you should punish people with ex post facto laws, and in many countries you can't.
Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret
#40Welcome to the New World Order, you didn't think it was gong to be a democratic order. Did you? These sweeping treaties (they are not agreements) lay the foundation of world government. yiu can be certain that nothing good will come from politicians secretly meeting to talk about a plan that no one is sharing. These treaties provide for unprecedented power to corporations to determine the goods and services to be tra…
Quite surprised to see a small bit of conspiracy stuff on HN.
To be honest, the NWO might be something good. Maybe in the future we'll admit it was a necessary thing to do. Just like there might be a time where people shouted against the republic system.