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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

truepublica.org.uk

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Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#81

Post by TheLogothete »

RodericDay wrote: post #79
TheLogothete wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…

Human inventiveness is infinite, can take us to the moon and land supercomputers in our hands... but apparently making smart business and transparent democracy compatible is just too damn difficult.

Human stupidity is infinite, not our inventiveness.

Einstein's words, not mine.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#82

Post by Symmetry »

RobertoG wrote: post #42
jokoon wrote: post #35

Sometimes I just want to think those treaties' function is to curtail multinationals, so that countries can be able to effectively organize themselves against those corporations who have become hard to regulate in a context of globalization. So if you want to successfully do it, you have to keep as many people in the dark, since I also believe those big companies have a tremendous influence on politicians. Maybe it's…

It's very difficult to give you a clear reason on why X thing is bad because.. well, nobody have seen X. But, if you are not very naive, you should be asking yourself why a free trade treaty is so important when we already have free trade. And if it's only a few changes to the current situation, why all the secret? Anyway, the things that have been leaked don't sound very well.

Free trade is basically just an absence of rules and so doesn't require a hundreds of pages long document.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#83

Post by ansible »

vmorgulis wrote: post #55

"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that. Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of…

Whatever you want to call the current form of government in western societies, our countries are still ruled by the elite for their own benefit. That is how it has been, and how it will likely continue to be.

Democratic institutions and transparency, however, provide an important safety valve for the smooth functioning of society. They are important tools to keep the elites in check. This is important for elites and for everyone else!

Elites in other times and places tend to get a little full of themselves after a while. "Divine mandate" and all that. They start to take their position for granted, and become more and more brazen in the pursuit of their own (oftentimes stupid) self-interests. When things get too far out of whack, a revolution erupts, which kills a lot of people and destroys a lot of wealth. This is bad for every class, rich and poor.

Transparency helps to curb the behavior of the elites, steering them away from the most egregious pursuits. Democratic institutions (though still controlled by the elites) allow society to adapt to changing times more easily, and allow through the will of the people to some extent.

Elites should understand (though some apparently don't) that a stable society benefits them as much as anyone. What good is your wealth if you have to spend a lot of it on security? The stress isn't worth it.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#84

Post by eis »

TheLogothete wrote: post #73
eis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the issue with that is...? "complain" just means negative feedback which should be taken into consideration since a draft is a version which is still being worked on. Isn't that how it should really be?

Complain is a very mild word. Proposals will be shred to pieces by local politicians looking for quick score and media always on the look for a sensation. Nothing will ever get signed if proposals are made public.

If you can shred something to pieces then maybe it shouldn't be signed? And if it was good then they wouldn't be able to shred it to pieces.

Sounds like you'd be afraid of public discourse.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#85

Post by emodendroket »

abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

Yeah, the prospect of the loss of national sovereignty must be terrifying for EU members.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#86

Post by emodendroket »

hollander wrote: post #9
abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

They should send someone in who has a photographic memory. In two hours he/she can browse those 600 pages, and later someone else can type them out. And this may all be done for a good hourly fee.

Why don't they just send someone with X-Ray vision to stand outside the building and read the documents and type them out? Problem solved.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#87

Post by alanwatts »

witty_username wrote: post #56
germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

>If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

Yeah, that's the point in having drafts, so you can revise them based on feedback from the stakeholders.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#88

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

TheLogothete wrote: post #68
themartorana wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be to…

Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…

>This is not how negotiations work.

You mean it's not how oligarchs want it to work. Proponents of unpopular policy proposals want to govern people, but they don't want to have to explain themselves to the people they propose to govern.

>You don't make preliminary talks public.

Just because it doesn't always happen, does not mean that it never happens, shouldn't happen, or can't happen.

>Making the above process public will tie the negotiators hands.

Which is the point of democratic processes. It is exactly what people want. I'm not sure what they're worried about anyway, in the US the proletariat has been convinced to go along with all manner of political and economic policy that goes against their best interests; they beg for more of it.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#89

Post by alanwatts »

pgnas wrote: post #29

Welcome to the New World Order, you didn't think it was gong to be a democratic order. Did you? These sweeping treaties (they are not agreements) lay the foundation of world government. yiu can be certain that nothing good will come from politicians secretly meeting to talk about a plan that no one is sharing. These treaties provide for unprecedented power to corporations to determine the goods and services to be tra…

>The nation state as a fundamental unit of man's organized life has ceased to be the principal creative force: International banks and multinational corporations are acting and planning in terms that are far in advance of the political concepts of the nation-state.

-Zbigniew Brzezinski, BETWEEN TWO AGES: America's Role in the Technetronic Era

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#90

Post by kabdib »

Knowing how the negotiations happened is quite interesting, and should not be kept secret now.

For instance, discussions about late, seemingly small changes can reveal agendas. Commas, minor word substitutions and other small-distance edits can have major alterations in meaning.

To the extent that minutes and logs of meetings were kept, they should now be published.

To the extend that minutes and logs were burnt or destroyed or avoided, the TTIP should be treated similarly.

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